Why will the 01W not send out its program changes?

Discussion relating to all other KORG synth related products that don’t have a dedicated section. For example, OASYS PCI, M1, N Series, 01W series, T series, and more…

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Daz
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Post by Daz »

HPH24 wrote:Good point, but when I look at Cubase's MIDI List Editor, there are NO program changes in it.
That's why I suggested that Cubase may be interpreting those fields (changing the track attributes) rather than recording them. Do you see the Program number in the Cubase Track inspector change during the the sending of the data from 01/W to Cubase.

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HPH24
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Post by HPH24 »

Well, I tried using a 1.4 mb floppy to save SMFs, as suggested, with the lower tab taped over and thn NOT taped over, but the $#@! synth keeps saying "Disk Type Error" to BOTH kinds when newly formatted, so I can't even TRY to convert things and get the program change header to finally show up as it should.

Cubase shows that its recording note data and pitch bends, for example, so I know its not Cubase. Its simply not being SENT the data.

If the 01W will send that info to hardware modules (if you set the sequencer tracks up to use different channels), then why the heck is it NOT doing so when Cubase IS recording everything else?

I've had 2 very logical-sounding suggestions that could have worked, if the 01W would TALK STRAIGHT. I am appreciative of Ian at Korg, who has tried to solve this, but I am ready to go to the corporate level and REALLY press hard. Does it seem at all reasonable that a $2600 flagship workstation will not send its own $#@! program changes OUT?? I don't think so. I am feeling pretty angry at this point. Its just not a reasonable situation.

Any further suggestions before I quit fooling around online and start racking up a big phone bill, maybe to JAPAN, for an answer?
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Post by dave »

I would strongly suspect that the replacement drive is the problem with regard to saving SMFs and formatting.

That said, I note you write: "Cubase shows that its recording note data and pitch bends, for example, so I know its not Cubase. Its simply not being SENT the data."

Does this mean that you're having success getting the MIDI from the 01/W sequencer into Cubase? And that all you're missing are the Program Changes?

If this is so, why don't you enter the Program Changes into Cubase after you've successfully transferred the MIDI data? If you have embedded PCs later in the timeline into the 01/W tracks, you can locate them using the 01/W Event Editor for each such track (you'll have to do this anyway for the 01/W Tempo Track if you have tempo changes in your pieces and you want to recreate this Tempo Map in Cubase).

Other than the above, I can think of only one other possible avenue. I don't know if you're familiar with the Karma, but basically you can "compose songs" on the fly and record them straight into your software sequencer.

At the Karma-Lab forum, there's a section dedicated to working with external sequencers and a sub-section for Steinberg products.

http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/forumdis ... forumid=59

The Steinberg section contains 19 posts from Cubase users, some of which have attached files detailing how to use the Karma with Cubase. Since this process is very similar in many ways to what you wish to do with the 01/W sequencer, you may glean something useful from them.

Since I don't know what version of Cubase you use, I can't direct you straight to whatever post is relevant for you.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Kind regards.
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HPH24
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Post by HPH24 »

>>> I would strongly suspect that the replacement drive is the problem with regard to saving SMFs and formatting.

I may have to allow for that, but if so, that's rather raw. The drive should not have anything to do with MIDI data being sent from a sequence that's already onboard and playing properly INTERNALLY.

>>>> That said, I note you write: "Cubase shows that its recording note data and pitch bends, for example, so I know its not Cubase. Its simply not being SENT the data."
Does this mean that you're having success getting the MIDI from the 01/W sequencer into Cubase? And that all you're missing are the Program Changes?

Yes, exactly.

>>>> If this is so, why don't you enter the Program Changes into Cubase after you've successfully transferred the MIDI data?

Because there are *numerous* changes and I should not HAVE to go to the microscope level. It would almost be like starting over from scratch because of a simple header issue. It would take a VERY long time to enter each of those by hand. Remember, its not in Cubase or elsewhere as a whole file; I'd have to sit with the 01W in my lap for literally months, pecking away.

No, I want a better method. This has been a VERY unmusical and defeating thing. Who decided I could not just be a composer and had to also be a debugger? I expect to do some configuration and troubleshooting, but this situation, feh. In a sense, Korg is making me suffer for my art TOO much, heh... but its not at all funny. I am seeing it as a glaring failure of the design because its so very basic a thing to expect.

>>>> If you have embedded PCs later in the timeline into the 01/W tracks, you can locate them using the 01/W Event Editor for each such track (you'll have to do this anyway for the 01/W Tempo Track if you have tempo changes in your pieces and you want to recreate this Tempo Map in Cubase).

So I have to go back into EACH TRACK of easily 50 compositions and insert those by HAND? When they are already in the stream? Then why the heck did I leave the realm of tape decks? Besides, the display has dimmed a lot over time; I don't know if that would be a rational way to fix what should have worked to begin with.

>>>> Other than the above, I can think of only one other possible avenue. I don't know if you're familiar with the Karma, but basically you can "compose songs" on the fly and record them straight into your software sequencer.

Okay, but isn't that why you BUY a workstation? NOT to have to accomodate the instrument externally in some clunky fashion? You could do that with a much less expensive synth. I would never have wrestled with a small LCD if Cubase had EXISTED in this form 10 years ago.

>>>> At the Karma-Lab forum, there's a section dedicated to working with external sequencers and a sub-section for Steinberg products.

http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/forumdis ... forumid=59

The Steinberg section contains 19 posts from Cubase users, some of which have attached files detailing how to use the Karma with Cubase. Since this process is very similar in many ways to what you wish to do with the 01/W sequencer, you may glean something useful from them.

Okay, off to do more troubleshooting instead of composing or mixing down, AGAIN. It may be similar, but the 01W is rather elderly, so I do not expect much crossover with a Karma. I'll certainly look, but when people start talking in computer code, I glaze over. I just don't speak binary to that extent.

>>>> Since I don't know what version of Cubase you use, I can't direct you straight to whatever post is relevant for you.

Cubase Studio 4, for Intel Macs, latest build, under OS X 10.4.1. Its pretty current. And remember, all other data is being recorded by Cubase, so its doing ITS job.

>>> Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

No, that's direct and useful info. I am just losing faith in the instrument. I have played live and been applauded, with this very synth, but no one EVER applauded my debugging skills. I can write pretty good music, but damned if I can go that right-brain. The end user should not have to delve into the CODE and that's about what this has begun to look like.

MIDI data is MIDI data. It either goes out or it DOESN'T. Its one hell of a kick in the crotch to devote so much to Korg tools (almost NINE THOUSAND BUCKS over the years) and then discover 10 years after the fact that a $2600 flagship instrument is this fussy. Someone screwed the pooch here and its not me. If the disk drive does everything else it should do, it should have ZERO effect on how MIDI data is handled. The manual SAYS it WILL send it data to outboard sequencers and it doesn't say anything else. I've been caught out very short. At the moment, I'm still waiting for delivery of the workstation I bought a decade ago.

Thanks for taking the time to pass the info along. I'll give it a look TONIGHT!
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Post by dave »

One final thought for you: in the past few months, I've had an E-mu EIV and an E-mu Morpheus die on me.

Both of these are used in every one of almost 1,500 compositions. After having three power supplies fry, I've had to abandon the EIV entirely and move all my E-mu samples into Kontakt. Since Kontakt's translation is s**t, every single preset has to be tweaked by hand. When that's done, I'll have to replace every EIV track in those 1,500 pieces with its Kontakt equivalent.

Then, unless I can find someone to repair the Morpheus (which doesn't look likely now), I'll have to go back and revoice every one of its assigned tracks in those 1,500 compositions. And remix each piece.

I've brought many of these compositions straight from the 01/Wfd and i3 sequencers into Cubase, Vision, and finally Performer and Digital Performer, through Mac OS 7, Mac OS 8, Mac OS 9, and – most painfully – Mac OS X. Years of my life are tied up in this work.

So I will do it, even if it takes more years. Because my music is a part of me that, no matter what life pukes at me, I will not let go.

You have 50 multitrack pieces to go through and find the Program Changes. You can use the Event Editor's filter so that it only shows PCs and nothing else.

Raging at Korg iwill achieve nothing but blood pressure elevation. It won't solve your issue. Only you can do that. If it's important enough to you, you do it. If it's not, you don't. But I wish I had your problem instead of my own.

And a final final thought: if Cubase has an input filter, make sure it's not set to filter Program Changes. Same thing goes for your MIDI interface.

Meantime, I have to bow out of this thread. Presets to tweak. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you good luck with it. :)

Kind regards.
Dave Bourke
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HPH24
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Post by HPH24 »

[quote="dave"]One final thought for you: in the past few months, I've had an E-mu EIV and an E-mu Morpheus die on me.
Both of these are used in every one of almost 1,500 compositions. After having three power supplies fry, I've had to abandon the EIV entirely and move all my E-mu samples into Kontakt. Since Kontakt's translation is s**t, every single preset has to be tweaked by hand. When that's done, I'll have to replace every EIV track in those 1,500 pieces with its Kontakt equivalent.
Then, unless I can find someone to repair the Morpheus (which doesn't look likely now), I'll have to go back and revoice every one of its assigned tracks in those 1,500 compositions. And remix each piece.

I think you should call Krypton and see if Dad can help you out with that. I can't imagine it. Your problem is exactly why I need this to work. Its also why I am saving AIFFs of the better 01W patches against the day it dies and I have to use those as best I can elsewhere, like in Dimension Pro.
I'm very torn about it. The massive amount of work that entails will slow everything else I do WAY down.

>>> So I will do it, even if it takes more years. Because my music is a part of me that, no matter what life pukes at me, I will not let go.

That's why more than a few end up going nuts. My nice ex had a computer professor who quit his job because the "advances" in computer science finally outstripped his ability to relearn so much with each new "improvement." Its not progress if it sets you BACK and an upgrade can be your worst enemy, as I have learned the hard way.

>>>> Raging at Korg will achieve nothing but blood pressure elevation. It won't solve your issue. Only you can do that. If it's important enough to you, you do it. If it's not, you don't. But I wish I had your problem instead of my own.

I don't plan to rage at Korg when Ian has kept pace with me when I call, but I AM going to press harder for an answer. I don't even have a "This can't be done" YET, so I have to believe its a rational thing to ask. Its especially galling, because everything is just now at the point where I could really bring my earlier work up to speed and then never have to DO this again. I THOUGHT I was approaching something like "good shape." I may yet, but sheesh, this mess keeps slapping my sunburn:P.

>>>> And a final final thought: if Cubase has an input filter, make sure it's not set to filter Program Changes. Same thing goes for your MIDI interface.

Good pointer, but yes, I did that early on in Cubase and the interface is a passive one, so there's no routing to massage there. Everything else is working as it should, he said, whispering quietly so as not to alert the dark gods again.

>>>> I wish you good luck with it. :)

Likewise. I appreciate the help. I don't envy you that uphill trek to recover your own work. Hopefully, I can avoid it myself.
gregwar
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O1W to standard midi files

Post by gregwar »

I’m not a tech but these links reminded me of this thread.
- http://indra.com/~cliffcan/01files.htm (offers a variety of solutions)
- http://www.giebler.biz/product.sc?categ ... roductId=7

On mac osx 10.4 you can save/backup (midi dump from global mode p8 ) the raw sysex information to be used with another O1/W or similar synth in the future with http://www.snoize.com/SysExLibrarian/ just click and read the full documentation link for instructions. This is what I do because I’m not interested in playing korg O1W/fd songs on other sequencers/synths.

indra mentions that sequences created on the O1 sequencer don't work with other synths or sequencers. so you'll have to convert these files to standard midi files if you read the manual (p. 181 and on, p. 197) they discuss standard midi files which play back ‘performance data’ (this is a bit vague) but I presume the program change messages and other data are probably screwed up. Therefore I recommend getting one of these programs (O1/W sequencer conversion software)

if the files are dearly precious to you than pay 20$ and go and pick up a working pc with windows 95 or whatever and an internal disk drive (check giebler’s specifications) and you can convert and save to SMF sequences (with filtering options for program changes, etc.) contact him for more info.

gm (general midi) and O1/W files are different including program changes. one suggestion change the drum track to gm 10? i'm reaching here... anyways i've also got an intel mac and struggle to find suitable software (mine is like 15 years old, original owner) apple is out with the old in with the new. Also consider midi quest xl http://www.squest.com/ try the demo.

to format a disk follow the instructions on p. 198 of the manual. if that doesn't work (you mentioned disk errors) check p. 211-212 for troubleshooting. Last but not least you may have to go in and edit by hand all of the program changes if none of these alternatives work for you I know that sucks but hey it was way more difficult before midi (try analog rolands communicating to korg and yamaha’s with cv/gate)
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Post by HPH24 »

>>>> I’m not a tech but these links reminded me of this thread.
- http://indra.com/~cliffcan/01files.htm (offers a variety of solutions)

Nice, but not useful. Its ALL about PCs and not Macs.

>>>> - http://www.giebler.biz/product.sc?categ ... roductId=7

Also useless; they are PC only.

>>>> On mac osx 10.4 you can save/backup (midi dump from global mode p8 ) the raw sysex information to be used with another O1/W or similar synth in the future with http://www.snoize.com/SysExLibrarian/ just click and read the full documentation link for instructions. This is what I do because I’m not interested in playing korg O1W/fd songs on other sequencers/synths.

Ok, but does that INCLUDE program changes? There's no point in installing yet another piece of software that will just stare at me and omit those. NO ONE has yet answered that and its my ONLY issue. Snoize does not answer e-mails, apparently. Will a bulk sys-ex dump from the 01W go TO Cubase, INTACT? Does anyone even know? 8 months on and no one knows.

>>>> indra mentions that sequences created on the O1 sequencer don't work with other synths or sequencers.

That is INSANE and INSULTING. Terrible, inexcusable design decision. The base MIDI data should be complete, period. Korg has essentially told me I can't link to the outside world where I need it most.

>>>>so you'll have to convert these files to standard midi files if you read the manual (p. 181 and on, p. 197) they discuss standard midi files which play back ‘performance data’ (this is a bit vague) but I presume the program change messages and other data are probably screwed up. Therefore I recommend getting one of these programs (O1/W sequencer conversion software)

Already tried that. The manual is totally vague and of no use. I have tried to save sequences as SMFs and the damned 01Wfd says "Disk type error" to BOTH DD and HD disks, which DID FORMAT! I have even asked Korg central on several occasions. No solution. I am 110% discouraged and angry. What dumbass designed a flagship synth that WON'T send its $#@! program changes to a basic thing like Sonar or Cubase??? Of what use is a hardware sequencer that will not talk to the outside world????

I have read everything there seems to BE on it, asked everyone in sight, including Korg and all I get is PC-based offers, "We don't know" or silence. I can't imagine ever buying a Korg product again. The insult and the loss are just too much to bear. I'd expect Yamaha to have a screwed implementation, but KORG?? Its 8 years of work down the drain unless I recreate it all by hand. The work load is just too damned depressing.

I appreciate your tip; I just wish Korg cared enough to really answer me. I know they are busy, but I've bought FIVE damned synths from them. Surely one person in the whole company could tell me how to fix this within a WORKING instrument. After 8+ months of research, I am still screwed and as of my last contact with the company 3 weeks ago, still no answer. I feel like taking a hammer to the 01W, shipping the pieces to Mr. Katoh with a note explaining WHY.

I un-checked reply notification. I see no point in repeating the same question to no avail. I really loved the 01W; now I am sorry I bought it.
dave
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Post by dave »

HPH24 wrote:What dumbass designed a flagship synth that WON'T send its $#@! program changes to a basic thing like Sonar or Cubase??? Of what use is a hardware sequencer that will not talk to the outside world????
With respect, this is not so. The synth DOES send program changes in its MIDI stream. As I posted way back at the beginning of this thread, I've never had any problems of this nature when transferring sequences into Digital Performer on Macs. And yours is the only example of this behaviour I've ever come across.

So I humbly suggest that either a) your synth is malfunctioning, b) Cubase is malfunctioning, or c) your MIDI interface is malfunctioning. Your synth's floppy drive certainly is.

In your position, I'd just cut my losses at this stage, look for another 01/Wfd (with the original drive), and get rid of the dud.

Kind regards.
Dave Bourke
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