Touchweight measuring on a weighted synth. RH2 vs RH3.

[mrpanoff]

http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/touchweight.htm

I just measured the downweight on an RH2, and it came out rather high, as expected. 68-70 grams in the highest register, and I ran out of coins anywhere lower than that, since even a bit over 70 grams wasn't enough to make the keys depress. While it's generally 50 grams that's considered normal, 30 on the lighter actions. I haven't measured the upweight, but it's probably rather sluggish as well.

The question is, when measuring the downweight on an acoustic, the important point is to depress the sustain pedal, and we don't have any similar impact from a digital pedal on a synth. However, if we're talking about static touchweight here, i.e. the smallest weight required to make the key go down, it still might be quite informative.

Have you measured the touchweight on your weighted synths? RH3 anyone?

PS: do you have an idea if RH3 can be fitted into a Triton instead of RH2?

[pedro5]

Just read the link provided and found it quite interesting, learnt a few things.
I've not checked the actual down weight of my Kronos 73 RH3,but would like to add some thoughts here,if I may.

Strangely perhaps,I can't find much differences between the lower (heavier) and the upper (lighter) weighted keys......although I know they have various graded weights over the whole bed.
I'm assuming that my piano playing of past times come into play (no pun intended) and have simply adopted a familiar style which overrides the weight differences in a natural
way.

As this is my first ever electronic hammer action keyboard,the mechanism itself feels good,providing me with a real treat to actually play more dynamically.

(Incidentally,the habit never did leave me even through the use of non velocity responsive keybeds.....you can imagine the result.....) .

I've not played an acoustic/real piano for years and have nothing to compare my current instrument with,not that it's of any consequence,but as said,I'm quite happy with
what I have.
Perhaps one day,I shall do the weight test,just to find out.

I need to add that my point here is that actual weights are just a matter of interest,unless there's an unacceptable differences between keys and it really comes down to how
it feels to play etc.....Just my opinion on things.


Best Wishes.

[runningman67]

Just when I thought every subject has been covered on this amazing forum, this pops up.
It is an interesting subject and I wonder, honestly how an electronic weighted keybed compares to an acoustic one.
With my limited experience with 'real pianos' I don't think the electronic weighted keybed come close.
Having said that, its what one is used to and I get along just fine with the RH3 on the Kronos, although I thought the RH3 on my old Korg SP250 felt a little closer to the 'real' thing.

[miden]

I think the RH3 is close to an acoustic piano -but it does depend on which acoustic piano to a degree.

IMO, the Fatar Grand Touch action is about the closest I have come to an acoustic piano keybed...RH3 is not far behind, although the Roland keys are exceptionally good - on reflection I would rate Fatar GT (by a split hair over R), then Roland then RH3, Yamaha and then all the rest.

To be honest I really don't worry about tech specs, or what it IS supposed to be like or what it is NOT supposed to be like, but I let my fingers do the testing no other procedure (scientific or not) comes close!!

Again let me stress - just my view

[runningman67]

To be honest I really don't worry about tech specs, or what it IS supposed to be like or what it is NOT supposed to be like, but I let my fingers do the testing no other procedure (scientific or not) comes close!!

agree with that +1

[SanderXpander]

Me too, I think the whole experience of playing an actual grand or upright is so different, the feel of the soundboard vibrating, the resistance of the damper pedal and feeling the dampers touch the strings when you let go slowly, the sound in the room... It's almost useless to compare just the keyboard feel and a recorded sample and judge whether or not it is "like a real one". It isn't and it will never be. That doesn't mean it can't sound and feel wonderful, so I tend to judge by that.

[Ojustaboo]

Yep, I agree.

There's acoustics that I have played and hated, never ever played an actual grand though, all I've played are uprights. Each one seemed to have a different feel etc. Many were appalling, the sort you find in the corner of a village hall in the UK etc.

I don't believe a digital piano will ever be able to truly replicate the acoustic piano its sampled from perfectly but I also don't think it matters.

If pianists got together tomorrow and voted a particular Grand the best on the planet and experts spent a year sampling it from every angle, it still would never sound the same as playing it. There's simply too many factors to take into account.

For example, any note will sound different depending on what other notes are already playing, and how hard those notes have been played. All that sound resonating together in the Piano, each note must affect what each other note ultimately sounds like.

And even if numerous million samples had been taken to cover almost every eventuality, and even if a PC was fast enough to process that info in real time, someone else could come along and play the actual piano in a completely different manner that hadn't been thought of by those sampling.

But I listen to people on the likes of Piano Forums slagging off various DP's and saying they sound nothing like an acoustic and I disagree. They might not sound like it side by side with someone actively looking for the differences, but when I hear say someone playing classical music or slow ballads (cheap obviously false sounding DP's aside) on the radio or background music for TV etc, I don't think "that doesn't sound like a real piano" or "that is obviously an acoustic", I think "thats a really great piano".

Same with guitars. While guitarists often slag off synth guitar sounds, if the person playing the synth knows what they are doing, often I would have trouble telling the synth apart from the real thing.

Personally I think strings is where the lack of realism is most noticeable. Someone playing a real violin compared to someone playing violin on a synth, I can usually tell a mile away (never played strings in my life).

But even then, chances are if I heard a string sound inside another piece of music, I wouldn't think that sounds false, its just that when I hear actual string instruments playing in an orchestra etc, I always feel "wow, that sounds beautiful" type of feeling and feel that that level of realism on a synth hasn't come close yet, however I cant say that of a piano or guitar sound

[SanderXpander]

On recordings it can become virtually impossible to distinguish between a DP on a real one, mainly because they've then both gone through a mic and speakers at some point. For sure, my Kronos will sound better in most live circumstances than a mic'ed grand would.
Actually sitting at a grand is still way different from sitting at a Kronos.

[mrpanoff]

Strangely perhaps,I can't find much differences between the lower (heavier) and the upper (lighter) weighted keys......although I know they have various graded weights over the whole bed.

Coins can tell the registers apart in a breeze.

Having said that, its what one is used to and I get along just fine with the RH3 on the Kronos, although I thought the RH3 on my old Korg SP250 felt a little closer to the 'real' thing.

One more piece of evidence that there've been different versions of RH3 indeed.

I'm not that concerned about digital keyboards being close to the "real thing" or not, it's just about this RH2 which is still quite stiff and hard to play.

[Chriskk]

Same with guitars. While guitarists often slag off synth guitar sounds, if the person playing the synth knows what they are doing, often I would have trouble telling the synth apart from the real thing.

If you play guitar, you'll have no trouble telling a synth guitar from a real guitar. The way you hit the string changes the tone significantly. What you use to pluck the string (finger tip, finger nail, pick types) changes the tone a lot. The same note, if played at different positions, sounds very different. Add to that numerous articulations and interactions among the guitar, effects, amp and speaker cab. There's no way a synth can emulate all of them unless it has 1,000 real time control knobs.

One of the most obvious thing that you hear in a synth guitar is the bent note has the same tone as the unbent note. On a real guitar bending the string changes the tone because the string tension increases.

[Ojustaboo]

Same with guitars. While guitarists often slag off synth guitar sounds, if the person playing the synth knows what they are doing, often I would have trouble telling the synth apart from the real thing.

If you play guitar, you'll have no trouble telling a synth guitar from a real guitar. The way you hit the string changes the tone significantly. What you use to pluck the string (finger tip, finger nail, pick types) changes the tone a lot. The same note, if played at different positions, sounds very different. Add to that numerous articulations and interactions among the guitar, effects, amp and speaker cab. There's no way a synth can emulate all of them unless it has 1,000 real time control knobs.

One of the most obvious thing that you hear in a synth guitar is the bent note has the same tone as the unbent note. On a real guitar bending the string changes the tone because the string tension increases.

I agree entirely, chances are if I played the guitar I would notice it a mile away.

But my point was that the average person listening to it, wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

And many people such as my wife, cant tell the difference between one drum kit or another on my Kronos or NI software or between most piano sounds.

It would also depend on the type of guitar being played. For example, if I heard this youtube clip on the radio, it would not occur to me that it wasn't a real guitar, I'd simply presume it was put through various effects (especially the bit starting around 2.00), I'd also think a synth was also being used at times but I wouldn't question the guitar,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLXptBl0 ... A&index=44

[JPROBERTLA]

This is an interesting subject as I have never seen any weight specifications for keyboard actions; and it certainly is relevant. I purchased a K61 (instead of a K88) back in November 2011 because of all the trouble reported on this forum with the weighted keybeds. Now that I have completed the transition from the Triton to the Kronos and no longer need the Triton for reference, the Triton Studio88 is simply too heavy to carry around to be used only as an 88 note weighted controller. So I decided to get a Kronos 88 and go back to one keyboard. I played a new one about a month ago and honestly did not like the action as much as the RH2 on my Triton; it felt extremely heavy and slow - dilemma. After that, I began looking at all the possible alternatives and tried as manny 88 note weighted actions as I could find. To my taste the Roland actions played and felt the best. Their recently released the A88, which has the Ivory Feel G key bed, feels lighter and has great rebound characteristics, as compared to the Korg's, Kawai's and Yamaha's. And while not a comprehensive controller, it is light and has the controller functions that I need. I have never owned a Roland keyboard (only modules) and hope there past history with controllers is carried on with the A88. It would be interesting to know the weight force required to depress and rebound on all key beds; after playing 20+ key beds over the past two weeks, I can assure you they can be significantly different.

[Ojustaboo]

I played a new one about a month ago and honestly did not like the action as much as the RH2 on my Triton; it felt extremely heavy and slow - dilemma.

Could it simply be a matter of a different feel that takes time to get used to?

When I first got my Kronos, I wished it had the same keyboard as my 88 Extreme (which I sold to part fund my Kronos 88) but now there's no way I would want to go back.

Also was it the X version you were playing? I had two original 88s that had problems, both had completely different keyboards, different textured notes etc. I was given an X as an exchange and in my opinion the keyboard is vastly superior, each key being perfectly evenly spaced etc.

If you tried on an older shop floor model it could be that if you bought one you would get a different keyboard altogether (madness I know)

[JPROBERTLA]

I did play an X model and it was about one month old. I usually can tell right away if I like a key bed feel. Roland's recent weighted key beds (PHAIII and Ivory Feel G) are extremely comfortable, nimble and responsible. I am going to get an A88 and hopefully it will hold up.