Kaossilator Pro - Unwanted CLICKS

[Scott M2]

I know there's a separate thread on unwanted GLITCHES:
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... highlight=

I was at a music store yesterday and was able to spend some time testing a KOsc-Pro.

I verified the aforementioned unwanted glitches when turning on an already recorded loop while playing the pad -
no matter how quickly I pressed and released the button.
Rich has already stated that this is part of the design and I verified that the KOsc-NonPro responds in the same fashion
although most people would be more inclined to use the technique on the KOsc-Pro with its multiple loops.

I discovered a different problem on the KOsc-Pro.

Attempting to create a smooth sustained loop, I turned down the PROGRAM VOLUME knob,
pressed and held the XY pad and pressed a Loop Button to record a loop.
At the loop-point a click appeared though I faded out the sound only after the loop-point. The click kept repeating each loop.

After stopping the loop, I pressed it again to initiate Play.
There was no click at the beginning of the first cycle and no click at the beginning of the next loop cycle,
however at the beginning of the next (third) loop cycle a click appeared and then continued every cycle.

I was able to recreate the clicks consistently by repeating the experiment and also with different sounds
and also with using the RECORD-button then LOOP-button method.

I tried the same experiment today with a KOsc-NonPro (Since there's no PROGRAM VOLUME knob, I used L.03,
played a note at the bottom of the pad, pressed the LOOP-button, faded the sound in by moving up on the Y-axis,
still holding the note and the LOOP-button through an entire cycle then faded the sound by moving to the bottom of the pad
and released the LOOP-button.) There were no clicks in any of the loop-cycles.

Could anyone with a KOsc-Pro try to make a sustained-sound loop in their machine and report if there's clicks or not?
Maybe the machine I was using was just faulty. (The serial # was nine hundred and something.)

Thanks in advance. This is, sadly, a deal-breaker issue for me if it is universal, as I make ambient and down-tempo music
and not always with beats (which can mask clicks). Perhaps there is a hidden option which I did not turn on(?).
Unwanted clicks are very Non-Pro.

[salamanderanagram]

you prolly created a zero crossing on the loop point. i'm not sure this is a kaossilator specific problem, but more a general sample-looping problem. i guess i'd have to see it in action to know either way but just a thought.

[samartin]

Sorry to report that I get the clicks also, I've noticed them a fair amount just from a more traditional way of playing the instrument.

Some sounds are worse than others tho', the softer sounds tend to fare better, not perfect but better.

[Kaoss Elation]

I am also getting clicks. Not sure if it is the sounds or the way I am recording, but I got these on a bass track I was recording last might. It does have a fairly percussive sound when you first press the pad so I couldn't decide if the clicks were part of the sound or an issue. I'll need to do some more testing.

I've also encountered these clicks on switching between loop banks simultaneously, ie when using the loop banks with 4 different drum patterns and trying to switch seamlessly between them.

[bluemind]

This is a problem with looping sustained sounds like pads in general, it might create clicks, because the waveform of the sampled sound makes a quick unintended jump for some reason at the loop point (or at the point you release the recording button). That creates a square wave like edge and thus some harmonics, and that produces the click.

I'll test this myself when I get my device, but do you allow the sound to decay naturally when looping? What I mean is when you record something and hold the loop button, do you end the recording by releasing the loop button or lifting your finger of the pad and waiting for the sound to stop completely and then releasing the loop button.

The first case is sure to produce clicks, because you basically cut the sound that is being recorded instantly to silence. The later just cuts from silence to silence, so no jump should be created and no clicks.

[Kaoss Elation]

I've done both. In creating the drum loops, I suspect it may be a case of the former. It may also be that when I switch between loop banks I was not pressing them at exactly the same time, causing the drum patterns to overlap and click.

However, for the bass line I created, I did the latter, specifically to try to avoid the problem. I recorded three bass riffs in 3 loop banks using a sound that decayed naturally before the end of the measure. I was still getting a click at the start of the loops, although as I said the bass sound I used does have a slight percussive sound at the start. I also found that pressing two loop bank buttons together (ie to turn off the first loop and start the next one) appeared to create a click. When I did them individually (ie turn off loop 1 then turn on loop 2 because of the slight gap at the end of each bass loop), the click didn't appear to happen (although there is still the recorded click on each loop).

It needs more testing - I am still at the fairly random stage and I am also trying to record a song rather than isolate the possible issues here. Bottom line is that on the recording I now have, the clicks aren't intrusive.

[Scott M2]

This is a problem with looping sustained sounds like pads in general, it might create clicks, because the waveform of the sampled sound makes a quick unintended jump for some reason at the loop point (or at the point you release the recording button). That creates a square wave like edge and thus some harmonics, and that produces the click.

I'll test this myself when I get my device, but do you allow the sound to decay naturally when looping? What I mean is when you record something and hold the loop button, do you end the recording by releasing the loop button or lifting your finger of the pad and waiting for the sound to stop completely and then releasing the loop button.

The first case is sure to produce clicks, because you basically cut the sound that is being recorded instantly to silence. The later just cuts from silence to silence, so no jump should be created and no clicks.

In my experiments, I faded in a note using the PROGRAM VOLUME knob to ensure there were no clicks from the instrument's attack,
then after crossing the loop-point (2 bars) I used the PROGRAM VOLUME knob to reduce the instrument sound to zero
before releasing the RECORD button. The clicks occurred at the loop-point.

It was particularly odd, as I wrote before, that "After stopping the loop, I pressed it again to initiate Play.
There was no click at the beginning of the first cycle and no click at the beginning of the next loop cycle,
however at the beginning of the next (third) loop cycle a click appeared and then continued every cycle."

I'd be interested in learning if anyone else experiences that peculiarity too.

[Kaoss Elation]

OK, I did some testing. I recorded L000 into a two measure pattern so that it started after the loop start and finished before the end, no clicks whatsoever, either on the loops or whatever combination of loop bank buttons was pressed. I then recorded two versions of P160 over a complete two measure loop, again no clicks on the individual loops but got occasional clicks on switching between loop banks simultaneously.

[Scott M2]

That's good news. If you have a chance could you try recording a sustaining non-percussive instrument sound over, maybe 3 measures,
into a 2 measure loop and report if it's free from clicks when playing back. Thanks again.

[Kaoss Elation]

It is. Just tried S124 (a modulating drone) and recorded more than two measures over a two measure loop, no clicks in the playback. Have had it playing for several minutes now.

[Scott M2]

Thanks! This is indicating that the store demo unit I tested was faulty.
I believe it was the first unit to appear in my city (Toronto).
I'll test another KOsc-Pro when available and if it's free of these clicks
then I can seriously consider buying it. Thanks again.

[Kaoss Elation]

I'm confused the more testing I do. I was getting quite a lot of clicks to start with but when I did these specific tests it was clear the clicks were not happening. I do have a recording with some clicks on a bass sound with a percussive start, so I can't say it is click free. I'd recommend you do a bit more testing doing the kind of thing you will be doing with the sounds you will use.

BTW, I checked out your website and enjoyed some of your free mp3s. A little too chilled for me but very nicely done.

[Scott M2]

I'm confused the more testing I do. I was getting quite a lot of clicks to start with but when I did these specific tests it was clear the clicks were not happening. I do have a recording with some clicks on a bass sound with a percussive start, so I can't say it is click free. I'd recommend you do a bit more testing doing the kind of thing you will be doing with the sounds you will use.

BTW, I checked out your website and enjoyed some of your free mp3s. A little too chilled for me but very nicely done.

Alright, I'll definitely test further when I can access a different unit.

And thanks for exploring our music. When dreamSTATE plays live we alternate the deep ambient with grooves and beats to break up the set.
This might be more to your tastes - but we don't plan to release any grooving material for another year or two.

[Radian]

I'm confused the more testing I do. I was getting quite a lot of clicks to start with but when I did these specific tests it was clear the clicks were not happening. I do have a recording with some clicks on a bass sound with a percussive start, so I can't say it is click free.

It's just all too easy to accidentally tap a loop bank button while you're playing the pad so I wouldn't rule that out as an explanation. After working for a while I find most creations have some sort of accidental glitches because of the design of the record logic.

Could the looper glitch described in this thread be dependent on the type of synthesis being used? Fully synthesised sounds seem to be tightly synced to the overall timing whereas I doubt if that's true of the PCM samples used for some instruments.

[SMK]

@diannanews

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