Controlling another keybed with Extreme's controllers (AMS)

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:57 pm

I would appreciate if someone can resolve one MIDI problem for me.

I currently use Extreme and N364, where N364 serves just as additional keybed. It's connected via MIDI OUT to Extreme's MIDI IN, thus N364 is master and Extreme is slave, meaning N364 controlles Extreme's tone generator. Extreme is set to be on Global Channel 1 and N364 is set to be on Global Channel 2, EXT. This enables me to do create combinations where all I need to do is set timbres I want to play on Extreme to midi channel 1, while timbres I want to play on N364's keybed are set to global channel 2 (it's all done in Extreme, without any programming and setting on N364, with one exception – I use one combination on N364 which uses all 8 timbres set on midi channel 2, EXT. I find this particular combination on N364 even unnecessary because even in program mode everything works fine).

Now, what I can't figure out is how to achieve this:

I want to be able to control sounds played on N364's keybed with controllers from Extreme. N364 hasn't knobs (pretty essential for my most important sounds) and switches, which are very important for me.

I tried connecting MIDI OUT from Extreme to MIDI IN on N364, in addition to cable already used to connect MIDI OUT from N364 to MIDI IN on Extreme, but nothing happens.
I believe that's because Extreme transmits data on Global Channel set up in GLOBAL mode. But if I set N364 to match Extreme's global channel (change N364 global channel from 2 to 1), sounds get mixed up and N364 transmits it's own sounds to Extreme's keybed. Not good.

Healthy logic tells me there has to be way I can control sounds played on N364's keybed with knobs and switches from Extreme and I have to be missing something. I'm under strong impression I'm missing something very simple here and the key lies in some small tweaking in MIDI protocols, but just now I just can't figure it out.

If anyone has MIDI knowledge to resolve this, or even has Extreme and any KORG with AI or AI2 engine (N364, X3, T3, 01/W, don't know about Trinity) and knows how to set this up, I would appreciate some brief tutorial.

I apologize for such a long post, but I wished to give enough information about my setup in order to avoid any misleads or something.

Thanks in advance,

shrike

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:33 pm

I will tell you something, from my experience there is no way oddoing that
especially if both synths are not on same G.C. and secondly, i think thats
WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY too complex and complicated to actually someone
sees it as a usefull thing or something that you really need...just my opinion.
In todays world and the mashines you have you can achieve a lot more
without these complications...i just dont understand it.

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:13 am

What's there not to understand?

I made my own accordions, for example, my own samples and programs, everything new. I simulated wind source on knob. So, when I play that accordions on N364 (not play exactly, control Extreme's tone generator with N364 keybed) I cannot modulate wind source (just like one would do on real accordion). And while playing on Extreme I can, obviously. And it's very handy doing combis the way I described, if sounds are spread on two keybeds I can play several sounds without changing current combi.

The same goes for my woodwind sounds, strings etc, I control various parameters with knobs and if I'm not able to control them with Extreme's AMS while controlling Extreme's tone generator with N364's keybed, it makes no sense to simulate natural instrument behavior.

Anyone else has a solution?

RVNOak · Post by **RVNOak** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:17 pm

This may sound thin but can you make the Extreme the controller??

xpander · Post by **xpander** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:57 pm

Haven't figured these things too deep in Korg yet, but I've had similar setups with other kbrds and modules.

Two things that come up to my mind right away are MIDI filters inside your synths and external MIDI merger/splitter boxes. Have you studied these MIDI filters in your synths? There might be plenty of options, what to let thru and/or what to ignore receiving.

I've had two master keyboards and three modules, two fx boxes plus a tracker MIDI'ed together in a big loop this way and once configured right, worked like charm.

BasariStudios, what is it with your signature?

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:57 pm

This may sound thin but can you make the Extreme the controller?

OK, maybe this wasn't obvious from my posts - Extreme already IS controller. Extreme controls it's own tone generator. N364's keybed controls Extreme's tone generator in addition to Extreme's keybed. So in one combi I play, for example, two sounds on Extreme's keybed, two on N364's keybed.

What I want to achieve is to influence sounds controlled by N364's keybed with Extreme's AMS sources, for example, when i in this setup I play sound on N364's keybed, I want to affect it with knobs and switches from Extreme (N364 hasn't knobs, switches and ribbon).

I refuse to believe it's impossible. I also don't think it's something so complicated it would require God himself teaching me how to do it. I thought some of the power users on this forum would know the trick in a second, but obviously this puzzles you as same as me.

Have you studied these MIDI filters in your synths? There might be plenty of options, what to let thru and/or what to ignore receiving.

Yes, I did. Obviously not thorough enough. I haven't find solution yet. I'm the one who usually points others to read Parameter Guides. Well, I did that too and didn't find simple solution, just some pointers as to where to look for solution. And I don't think external MIDI switcher/router would be needed, those are both Korg's, if they can't be set up like described, than what can?

RVNOak · Post by **RVNOak** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:52 pm

Yeah, sorry shrike, I completely misunderstood. I thought you were only controlling the Extremes tone generator with the other board.

KrzysiekK · Post by **KrzysiekK** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:14 pm

Hi I just saw this thread today (been away korgforums for a while). According to my understanding, what You say should be solved in easy way. I will look at my TEX and see if my suspictions are right.

Best regards,
Krzysiek

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:21 pm

I was wondering where are you so far, KrzysiekK, I know this kind of technicalities are your weakness...

Hope you're gonna solve it.

KrzysiekK · Post by **KrzysiekK** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:50 pm

This is not that simple

actually it seems impossible to me w/o additional MIDI routings in Combi mode. In SEQ mode the same problem althought things are organized in a bit different way.

After short test, my conclussion:

in Combi mode, TEX is able to control ITS OWN timbres directly only in case these timbres are set to global MIDI channel (I think the only exception is an arpeggiator /because of sharing arp engine among different parts/, but I am not sure, I don't know TEX so indepth).

So (still in Combi) if You want to use AMS for particular part and control it within TEX, it must be set to global channel (according to Your description, I think You know this already).

If any timbre is set to MIDI channel other than global, it can be used only as a slot for controlling MIDI OUT messages (from the point of view of TEX controllers of course), not an internal TEX soundmodule. So in your setup, You can control AMS using only external controllers transmitted on channel 2 (i.e. anything your N has onboard); internal TEX controllers are useless here as AMS is internal feature of soundmodule.

The workaround (indirect solution) is to make a MIDI loop in following way:
- TEX -> MIDI OUT -> MIDI processor (catch TEX controllers trasmitted MIDI stream in the external MIDI equipment)
- MIDI PROCESSOR echoes the signal back unaffected, to TEX, ON MIDI CHANNEL 2

You might also try doing MIDI loop in some way without any MIDI processors, just a cabling -

I tried connecting MIDI OUT from Extreme to MIDI IN on N364, in addition to cable already used to connect MIDI OUT from N364 to MIDI IN on Extreme, but nothing happens.
I believe that's because Extreme transmits data on Global Channel set up in GLOBAL mode.

it transmits on ANY timbre's MIDI channel assuming that the timbre is set to EXT (eg. if You have 4 timbres on different MIDI channels, all of them set to EXT, there will be message generated to all of 4 channels on each knob move). Having Extreme MIDI OUT -> N364 MIDI IN connection, try allocating one Combi timbre slot, set to EXT, Chn. 2 transmission.

The whole workaround trick is to control TEX externally with it self (this is MIDI loop).

I am also thinking of such solution: whether it is possible to program the soundmodule so it reacts in different way when it is controlled by TEX than the way it is controlled externally. If it was possible then You could simply put all the timbres on global channel; set N to match global channel; set the particular timbre on TEX which is supposed to be played from N to stop reacting on TEX keyboard, just on TEX controllers, but still react on NOTE messages comming from N. However in MIDI filters section there is no way to block NOTE messages; neither it is possible to filter MIDI I/O stream independently.

Best regards,
Krzysiek

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:46 pm

This is not that simple

Yeah, man, it's not simple at all.

impossible to me w/o additional MIDI routings in Combi mode

So far my testings lead me to conclusion it's impossible in COMBI mode no matter what routings I use, simply because of the fact that control messages are transmitted only on channel set as global.

I will wait weekend for further testing and hope something can be set up in SEQ mode. According to manual, in SEQ mode control change messages are transmitted on MIDI channel specified in MIDI channel routing menu (P2), which means I could maybe separate what to control and where. But I suspect I would need to make specific combi settings in N364 according to combi in Extreme, one for one, like you said:

would need to allocate one Combi timbre slot, set to EXT, Chn. 2 transmission.

That would be too much. I try to keep my combis simple, so I don't have to change anything much, just sounds in one timbre for soloing, for certain song, and keeping this as primary aim, selecting something on Extreme and then on N364 would be fine while playing at home, but after few hours of giging I would probably tend to mess something up.

It is very strange to me that no one else asked the same question before. I never used knobs until I found how easy they could be put to work. So maybe other musicians don't use them at all, or doesn't play Extreme with two keybeds.

Anyhow, thank you KrzysiekK, for your time and effort. I believe you have much more knowledge than me when it comes to technicalities like this, and if you are puzzled with this particular question, I don't mind being puzzled myself.

Regards,

shrike

xpander · Post by **xpander** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:29 pm

Haha, this just seems to become way more complicated in every turn that I think it really should be. Shrike, I'm sorry that I even started answering an Extreme topic while owning a Triton rack myself. Then again, MIDI protocol is universal, both units are Korgs, I might have gathered some experience on things MIDI ...and you asked for that knowledge.

Well, that's all the excuses. Couple of things I'd like to understand.
You use both N364 and TEX to control Extremes sound engine, right? You also want to use Extremes controllers (AMS) to control some aspects of the sounds (lets say Timbres)...again, inside the Extreme. Hmmm, so why not use them then, they are right there on the machine itself?

You need one hand on the keys anyway to play something, and the other one on the controller knob(s), ribbon, whatever. I can't see a third one on N364 at the same time, can you? In other words, why not make those Timbres needing that extra control, controllable right from the TEX as is. Then use the N364 for the other Timbres which won't need anything else but just keys.

There are many ways you can achieve this kind of control, MIDI wise that is, but I quess I just don't grasp the basic idea behind this dilemma.

RVNOak · Post by **RVNOak** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:20 pm

Seriously, I would send a PM to Sharp or Daz and see if they know how or know of any resources to get your answer. They are both pretty "sharp" on these type of things. Ask them to look at this post and see if they can answer on this post as well - seeing as how we are all wanting to understand now

There are power users on this forum, you are one of them (whether you believe that or not. Has it not been said that the person with the accent thinks they have no accent?). I could be considered a power user by some. Truth is, we all have ways to produce the sounds we are trying to achieve. Your idea has intrigued me and I'm wondering if I can't do this live myself. Just never thought of it.

Victor Wooten put this best. If you give a Bass to a Sax player, chances are they will hang it from their neck and hammer the strings in such a fashion as they play the sax. As a bass player, I learn from this and have picked up a new way to express myself.

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:10 am

xpander,

I see your point and while I can't figure this out just yet, it is the way I'm playing now and have played for last two years, I spread sounds I need to control while playing just on Extreme's keybed.

But that is somewhat limiting and I wanted to know is it achievable the way I described. Music I play often consists of many instruments and I often don't have time to change anything, just enough time to replace hands from one keybed to another. Usually I sustain strings or pads with damper while controlling main sounds with AMS so it can be done without three hands. This is where ability to trigger AMS on both keybeds would come very handy.

RVNOak,

I don't want to bother Sharp or Daz by PM. They are admins here and I believe they have enough work even without me. I also believe if they knew the answer they would say something inside this thread. Their is little benefit if only I get the answer, since obviously this is something interesting to you and other musicians too.

I also sent e-mail to Korg USA and PM to Jerrythek. With no answer so far.

RVNOak · Post by **RVNOak** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:41 pm

RVNOak wrote:Ask them to look at this post and see if they can answer on this post as well - seeing as how we are all wanting to understand now

Sure they're forum admins but that doesn't mean they see all the posts.