Been YEARS - Kronos

[Gwendal]

(...) if ever I met somebody who has exhausted everything the Kronos can do(...)

Well...what about those who don't have a Kronos? Especially young musicians who can at last thanks to their day job afford an expensive keyboard.
The Kronos is not to sell anymore.

I bought a second hand X3R when I was 19yo with holiday's work money. I had to wait until I was 25 yo, with a real job, to buy a second hand Triton pro X.
My purchase was motivated because I had the chance to have a friend whom father bought a Korg T1 when we were 14yo (and we installed Cubase 1.0 on a Atari 520ST too... ).

I fell sad for young musicians, Korg enthousiasts because they've seen a Kronos (or an Oasys), who are restricted to wait few years for an hypothetic Oasys II, or buy a Nautilus which is indicated by all Korg owners as "do not buy".

A communication issue?
What can do Korg? If they say "a new workstation is in preparation and be in the market in 2 years"...nobody would buy the Nautilus.
What about no Nautilus at all? The issue is with the Karma. Korg do not have the (copy)right anymore to sell any Karma. So Korg cannot sell any new Kronos. I agree that would have been a huge bold communication if Korg said "we prefer not to sell a quick and dirty copy of the Kronos; please wait for the next gen workstation.

I think there are a lot of similarities between the Nautilus and the M3

Else what improvements on an Oasys II/new Kronos? (because no, the Kronos is far, really far, from being perfect) :
- start delay -> seriously 2min to start in 2022? (Kronos or Nautilus)...I'm not such a Windows XP nostalgic.
- Integrated Daw -> let a workstation BE a workstation : bigger screen (and possibility to plug some external screen/keyboard), cubase-like tools to manage audio/midi tracks, integration of external VST (yes, that would be a game changer), pro mastering/finishing integrated tools
- dynamic physical interface -> faders, "infinite" knobs, but with some little lcd screen indicating what parameter they change (not a futuristic technology though), not only helping in the DAW mode, but in analogic keyboard mode, or even in performance mode.
- way better horns, winds, and voices sounds. Keyboards, strings, pianos, organs are super good in the actual Korg products, but the horns and winds instruments are quite bad. I may even think about the synthetic voices who can be really improved in quality and not be just some samples. So 3 new sounds motors (wood winds, metal winds, voices).

That may sound like a Christmass list, but there is another point of view.
Either the future workstation will compete with computers DAW, or the future workstation would be restricted to a "niche" of old musicians, while the majority of musicians will do an easy calculation : price of a PC+DAW+master keyboard VS price of a workstation. The first is way cheaper and have way more functionnalities. Choice done.
...so Korg will have no economic interest in investing time and money in a workstation while basic products like the Modwave, Opsix, wavestate are cheap to conceive, cheap to produce and their prices target a wide range of musicians...including the DAW users.

[Derek Cook]

@Gwendal

It's a fair point, and you can look at it a couple of ways, taking into account that Korg is not likely to be doing a Kronos replacement any time soon (in my view).

I personally would not say "do not buy a Nautilus". It depends on what you want.

If you have never experienced a Kronos, and are not reliant on some of the Kronos features then maybe the Nautilus will sort you out, and find it a perfect synth that has (on the old 80.20 rule) about 80% of what the Kronos offers.

Kronos owners may bemoan the loss of the control surface (but not the end of the world if you add something else to do that) and KARMA, but some people prefer the Nautilus dual arpeggiators to KARMA. And do you use aftertouch or not? For me that is the real deal breaker as the Nautilus does not have it, but I use it a lot as I often have both hands on the keyboards when I play, so never have a hand free for the mod wheels other than for some specific solo only parts. I use foot pedals a lot, but aftertouch is great to have as well. In fact, I have just brought my first Poly Aftertouch equipped synth!

Or if you want the Kronos features, then you can always go second hand. A lot of the synths on my Wish List over the years have not been new purchases.

[blazerunner]

(...) if ever I met somebody who has exhausted everything the Kronos can do(...)

Well...what about those who don't have a Kronos? Especially young musicians

Sadly I feel like these "young" musician's aren't so interested in learning how to play an actual instrument but instead working on fly by night songs to upload to the internet using the latest VST software to make the music thinking process easy for them. This kids don't have the same will to make music.

Keyboards like the Kronos with its steep learning curve just aren't an interest for the younglings these days. At most these kids want to cut as many corners as they can. When you go through the "struggle" of starting out on what you can afford and building your playing skills up till you can "get what you want" it only adds to your personal character and playing ability. The kids out here are just interested in "loop packs" and "sample kits" to "assemble" music rather than "make it".

I've noticed it's not just a technological change from workstations over to daw but also a shift in the mindset of music production. People just don't feel like putting in the work to produce songs on a workstation because it's hard and more work and at the end of the day you still have to pump it through a DAW to get everything done right....and once again I throw in the MPC as the example where Akai foresaw that and decided to make their standalone production product it's own DAW and integratable with existing popular software so that it grows along with the modern musician.

The Kronos is just on an island by itself. It's the least popular with the younger crowd and no disrespect to any of the older users here but that's been the problem with Korg. The Triton's sold well because younger artists and producers picked them up to make music across all genre's. The Triton is Legendary. It's sounds were featured on so many hits it should have its own Grammy. It was the standard to have one. You couldn't ignore its capabilities but with the Kronos it's not like that anymore. The younglings have better more affordable and capable options than a $3K keyboard. The Kronos isn't the production standard it's a relic of production past. It's just the better option of what's out there since the decline of workstations.

I remember walking into Guitar Center back in the early 2000's and practically every manufacturer had a workstation of some sort. Walk into music store these days and they have one or two workstations sitting collecting dust in a corner. Years ago when I went to inquire about getting a Kronos or a Jupiter 80 at the time the guy ask me "Why would you want one of those? Dude just get a computer". I'm not going to lie at that moment I just wanted to find a bathroom somewhere so I could cry. I knew that I wasn't cool anymore and that I had become outdated.

[voip]

The Kronos may have been around for a while, but try and have a listen to this and, whilst doing so, consider if it's no longer sonically relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAxzn2C87ys

.

[Xenophile]

Sadly I feel like these "young" musician's aren't so interested in learning how to play an actual instrument but instead working on fly by night songs to upload to the internet using the latest VST software to make the music thinking process easy for them.

I got kicked out of a Logic Pro user group on Facebook after I made fun of a couple self-described "producers" who were arguing about the best plug-in to "generate pro-sounding chord progressions."

[Derek Cook]

The Kronos may have been around for a while, but try and have a listen to this and, whilst doing so, consider if it's no longer sonically relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAxzn2C87ys

.

Great video and a great example why the Kronos is still very relevant to me. If you go to the chap's youtube channel you can find the other parts to the demo.

Also just because a synth is old, it does not mean to say it is no good any more. There is nothing that will ever replace my SY99, TG77, AN1x, FS1r and EX5R when it comes to it when it comes to classic Yamaha gear, or my Nord G2 Engine. I may not use them so much these days, but they are irreplaceable, and I put the Kronos in the same boat.

[Gwendal]

I personally would not say "do not buy a Nautilus". It depends on what you want.

I do say "do not buy a Nautilus".
The Nautilus has been made as a "quick and dirty" copy of the Kronos.
- its hardware architecture is using 32 bits chips created in the late 90's...in 2023!
- its software architecture is basically 95% the one of the Kronos, and as a Triton owner I may say it's even the same at more than 80% the one of the Triton.

So two possibilities :

- it's the last Korg workstation (who is going to focus only on Rasberries based analog small synths), so don't expect Korg to produce a mind blowing game changing new OS. The hardware architecture is way too old, and in this scenario Korg won't spend time and money on a living dead product (ask Oasys users about this). So you are going to be stuck with a workstation that could only be considered as modern/innovative back in 2005. If your goal is to have a good workstation, then a master keyboard like a Komplete 88 and a cubase with some VST are a way wiser choice.

- Korg releases a real new workstation, with 64 bits rasberries, 10 secondes start up, VST possibilities, super sequencer, super big screen, faders, endless knobs, dynamic lcd indicators on knobs/faders, possibility of mono and poly after touch...so the super big deal. So what about the Nautilus owners? They then have a keyboard impossible to sell, and they are going to rage against their old and slow starting windows XP like workstation.


There is a video from Andertons which resumes all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4S8q_51vz0

The conclusion of Jack is about...how good was the Oasys. No enthousiasm about the brand new Nautilus.
And the guy's day job is to sell keyboards.

[Derek Cook]

And I think you hit the nail on the head in your point about it being quite easy to build your own dream workstation with VSTs and a controller keyboard.

I have a small NUC PC in my gig rack that runs anything I want in VST form using Catabile as a live host and MIDI processor/router.

And I think that is one of the reasons why the workstation as an all in one concept is dead, and why Korg are focusing elsewhere. I have a Wavestate and it is a great synth but I have never been enamoured with the form factor, so much happier that Korg have now released it as a VST, and I have added the native versions of OPSIX and MODWAVE.

Personally I do not worry if the Kronos is 32 bit or not or withdrawn from sale. The question is does it work? Does it do what I want, and I have I exhausted its possibilities. Yes, Yes No. If Korg does not bring out a suitable replacement, I will not fret, I will simply keep my Kronos.

Korg having done what they have with the Nautilus may not be innovative, but they are a business, and if that sells to people who do not give a hoot about nine sound engines and just play presets, then they are getting Return on Investment (RoI) that I am sure they are putting to good use based on what they think their future market is (and they may be right or wrong - that is a business risk).

Of course, who knows what is in Korg's mind and what is on the cards. We are all speculating, so I have been making the points that it may be old, it may be obsolete, there may be no replacement, but the Kronos still has loads of unexploited potential.

[Gwendal]

(...)about it being quite easy to build your own dream workstation with VSTs and a controller keyboard.

Not to mention the possibility of having 2 controller keyboards.
One classical, a Komplete like 88 "normal" keyboard, and a seaboard rise 2 (a Roli product).
The more I watch videos about the seaboard, the more I think, like Jordan Rudess, that it's a real game changer like we have hardly seen since the last 20 years in the synth industry.

You can still add a PreSonus Fader port 16 to handel your tracks and your DAW navigation with physical faders and buttons.

A dream set up for me...except it takes a lot of space, requieres a dedicated desk, and it is even recommanded to have a dedicated computer.

The first advantage of old workstation, Oasys or Kronos, is you don't need to dedicate a room for them, with a special desk. A stand, a power plug, a good headphone and let's go. I can even add, very old workstations like my Triton have even the huge advantage of immediate startup.

The second advantage of old workstation is that you don't have to manage the interactvity set up of its components. No drivers, updates, midi set up, or DAW set up to deal with. Comparing the learning curve between using a workstation sequencer (audio + midi for the good workstations), and learning how to use a DAW and everything connected to it, may end up in a clear favor of the old workstation.

So I don't think there is no future for a (Korg?) workstation. But it must be a REAL workstation (with physical faders and audio tracks, ...) that must seriously compete with any DAW.

Then we loop back in the necessity to have a 64 bits architecture to handle big memory (32 bits is limited, without special additionnal tricks, to adress 4Go of memory), to handle proper virtualizations (the 32 bits can technically do it...but) thus having the possibility of handling high speed/real time treatments, high quality sound samples, the possibility to record with good quality more than 4 audio tracks simultaneously, the possibilty to handle external VST, and coupled with a good SSD and an equivalent of the windows memory dump/swap hiberfill.sys file, a super fast startup.

Else I agree at 100% with you, if someone is happy with a Nautilus, then there's no need of dealing with updates, of 32 bits architecture. Vangelis,Jean-Michel Jarre, Moroder, Wolfson/Parson, a lot of my favorite musicians had created wonders with devices that were not 64 bits
The Beattles have recorded some of their mythical songs on 8 tracks tape.
A good device will never replace talent or creativity.
But...when it's the moment to use our own credit card for an expensive gear, we, musicians, can be more exigent than our musical level really requieres. Dont't you think?

[Derek Cook]

Hi, I fully agree with you as well, especially the point that we are totally spoilt in this day and age compared to the hardware that our predecessors had, but use to make all of those classic albums of my youth that still resonate today. But they probably knew it inside out and back to front (probably easier in those days due to limitations) compared to what we know about our systems.

I learnt Kronos Polysix very quickly, as you'd expect, but eight years on, I am still learning things about AL-1, and have still barely scratched STR-1 and MOD-7.

And, yes, it is easy to get GAS for new gear. I have just scored on a Hydrasynth to go with everything else, all carefully chosen (including best of Korg and Yamaha) but that really is the last (I literally have no more room unless I start selling!).

[Pedja]

Something off topic, but close to what Mr. decided Mr. Derek Cook said, and his decision to buy the ASM Hydrasynth. I don't know which version, but that doesn't matter in a way. It kind of confirmed my extreme excitement when I heard that instrument on youtube.
Your choice (I am referring to Mr. Derek Cook, whom I respect very much, as an exceptional musician) confirmed my good taste in instruments.
Hydrasynth appeared relatively late in my country, I happened to be the first customer. However, after only a few months, the Hydrasynth Deluxe appeared, which suited me better (because of the additional two octaves), but there was no correction possible, since there is no possibility of replacement, and such instruments are very difficult to sell here.
I'm a big synthesizer layman, a latecomer to that world.
I connected the Hydrasynth and Kronos X 73 with a midi cable (Hydasynth midi-out, Kronos X midi in). In my opinion, I didn't get a special niche with that, except that I can hear both instruments at the same time through the mixer.
Mr. Derek Cook would you be so kind as to give me some guidance in terms of connecting those two instruments, and something that would improve that connection.
Thank you for all your attention.
I wish to all good time.

[CliveJ]

I too have a HydraSynth - paired with my Kronos 88 Titanium.

I use sequencer mode live, as I use WAV backing tracks, and Kronos MIDI out is connected to Hydra in. This way I can use a sequencer track to select patches and set volume on the Hydra. I also use a MIDI track to call up programs in my Vocalist Live Pro. The Set List calls up the relevant sequence and everything is balanced and ready with a single button press.

Next job is to connect Hydra out into Kronos in so I can play Kronos lead sounds.

If I had the choice I would swap the Hydra for the deluxe version, but that’s probably just GAS.

[Pedja]

Thank you very much @CliveJ to describe of your experience. It's valuable to hear everything coming from people who master synths at a much higher level than I do.
I wish you all the best.

[CliveJ]

…people who master synths at a much higher level than I do…

Tech I can do - as for playing, I get by (badly)

Best to you too!

[Derek Cook]

Hi,

So we do not take this topic too far off topic , I have created a new topic for the Hydrasynth Questions/Discussions