Opinions on "Newness" of Orchestral Libraries

[Jamist]

Hi,

I'm thinking about buying some orchestral sounds, and I couldn't help but notice that some of the libraries were being discussed on this forum 5+ years ago.

That's eons in the technology industry. Does anybody know if the libraries have been updated recently? Or if there's a producer that's released libraries fairly recently.

No suggestion here that what's available isn't good. I just have no way of knowing. But if a library was available pre-Kronos for OASYS users, I'm concerned that the sounds are not all they could be.

Your opinions are welcome. Note that I'm looking for something that's playable, as opposed to a composer's tool.

Thanks,

Jim D.

[GregC]

Maybe you could explain 'something that is playable '

my answer is philosophical, more as a song writer. So I guess it isn't what you are looking for.

not to sound argumentative, new is better because 'tech says so ' is not my song writing requirement.

There are numerous orchestra sample libs that are high quality. I see the creation as mostly an art form.

I am still enjoying the heck of Korg factory programs, like the pianos. +8 yrs old. Kronos also has some orchestra combis, ensembles. They are playable and then some, IMO.

And so forth , etc etc

[kronoSphere]

You cannot ask to a workstation, even as powerful she is, to sound like a live concert of, as an exemple, the concerto in G from Maurice Ravel.
Though all is subjective, you cannot replace the musical playing way of 60 musicians with samples, even with articulaion, legato etc etc. The manufacturers of plug ins who say so : they lie.
So, you have to find and create tricks with the banks of orchestral sounds that exist forcthe Kronos. The illusion in Art is often the better way to "paint" the reality !

[Jamist]

You cannot ask to a workstation, even as powerful she is, to sound like a live concert of, as an exemple, the concerto in G from Maurice Ravel.
Though all is subjective, you cannot replace the musical playing way of 60 musicians with samples, even with articulaion, legato etc etc. The manufacturers of plug ins who say so : they lie.
So, you have to find and create tricks with the banks of orchestral sounds that exist forcthe Kronos. The illusion in Art is often the better way to "paint" the reality !

I understand your point, but I guess that’s why I want to identify the best tools available. Might as well start with the best I can before trying to create that illusion, right?

[Jamist]

You cannot ask to a workstation, even as powerful she is, to sound like a live concert of, as an exemple, the concerto in G from Maurice Ravel.
Though all is subjective, you cannot replace the musical playing way of 60 musicians with samples, even with articulaion, legato etc etc. The manufacturers of plug ins who say so : they lie.
So, you have to find and create tricks with the banks of orchestral sounds that exist forcthe Kronos. The illusion in Art is often the better way to "paint" the reality !

I understand your point, but I guess that’s why I want to identify the best tools available. Might as well start with the best I can before trying to create that illusion, right?

[Jamist]

Maybe you could explain 'something that is playable '

my answer is philosophical, more as a song writer. So I guess it isn't what you are looking for.

not to sound argumentative, new is better because 'tech says so ' is not my song writing requirement.

There are numerous orchestra sample libs that are high quality. I see the creation as mostly an art form.

I am still enjoying the heck of Korg factory programs, like the pianos. +8 yrs old. Kronos also has some orchestra combis, ensembles. They are playable and then some, IMO.

And so forth , etc etc

By”playable” I mean my interests are not in composing tools, sequencing, etc. I’d like to buy a library that has great-sounding samples that can be used in a performance directly.

I understand your comments about age vs. quality. But it’s been my experience that as technology evolves, the things that rely on it evolve along with it. Faster, more powerful processor chips mean faster, more powerful workstations, and higher-capacity, less-expensive storage devices mean better quality, longer samples, to cite two examples. So I do think that there’s at least the potential that more recent libraries would be “better” than older ones.

JD

[Jamist]

Maybe you could explain 'something that is playable '

my answer is philosophical, more as a song writer. So I guess it isn't what you are looking for.

not to sound argumentative, new is better because 'tech says so ' is not my song writing requirement.

There are numerous orchestra sample libs that are high quality. I see the creation as mostly an art form.

I am still enjoying the heck of Korg factory programs, like the pianos. +8 yrs old. Kronos also has some orchestra combis, ensembles. They are playable and then some, IMO.

And so forth , etc etc

By”playable” I mean my interests are not in composing tools, sequencing, etc. I’d like to buy a library that has great-sounding samples that can be used in a performance directly.

I understand your comments about age vs. quality. But it’s been my experience that as technology evolves, the things that rely on it evolve along with it. Faster, more powerful processor chips mean faster, more powerful workstations, and higher-capacity, less-expensive storage devices mean better quality, longer samples, to cite two examples. So I do think that there’s at least the potential that more recent libraries would be “better” than older ones.

JD

[Purgatory]

I personally think the KApro EXs Sample Library Bundle Vol. 2 Symphonic Dreams Complete 4: $249 ($399) is the best if you don't have that first.


Also just download them and demo them, the problem is they cut in and out really fast in demo mode, but will give you an idea.


The order I rate them are:-

1. ・ KApro EXs Sample Library Bundle Vol. 2 Symphonic Dreams Complete 4: $249 ($399)

2.・ EXs131-134 Epic Composer: $249 ($399)


Anything that has the words Private Collection are basically bits of different sound libraries for people that don't want or need the full sets.


I prefer the full sets than the private collections as you end up missing stuff and may want them in the future and you end up only buying the full set later for the missing bits and basically purchased some twice or more depending on how many Private collections you get in the first place.

Start with the KApro EXs Sample Library Bundle Vol. 2 Symphonic Dreams Complete 4: $249 ($399) you won't regret it, then if you want more individual instruments then add the epic composer, the animated epic composer stuff is basically phrases that are played which may appeal or not.

I added the kapro violin, cello for better violins and cello, they are better than both the epic and symphonic sets for the individual instruments.


Symphonic Dreams Complete 4 being used here in all the videos below :-

<iframe width="480" height="270" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/b7S3KocL66c" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media"></iframe>



<iframe width="480" height="270" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OXVd0vl26oQ" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media"></iframe>


<iframe width="480" height="270" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ur4ICYjgBGE" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media"></iframe>



<iframe width="480" height="270" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Ye4X6a9AJOA" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media"></iframe>


<iframe width="480" height="270" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Q96rV0SQarI" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media"></iframe>



Youtube the Epic composer sets, the demos are all pretty bad that I found of the epic composer stuff, you can't get a real idea what they can do, They are better than the videos show but only if you find a use for them, I like them but I find I keep using the Symphonic Dreams Complete 4 more and every time I demo the epic demos I feel like there is not enough there compared to Symphonic and avoid buying them but now with the price cuts I may try the demos again and see if it's worth a punt.



Also today is Black Friday sale so a 33% discount on the prices too.


* * *
We are pleased to announce "Special 2019 Black Friday Sale".
The new price is effective immediately.
For full details, including audio demos, please check out the KRONOS Sound Libraries site:

Special 2019 Black Friday Sale
https://www.korg.com/news/2019/1129/

KRONOS Sound Libraries site:
https://shop.korg.com/kronos/SoundLibraries

* Black Friday Sale Period
12:00AM November 29th, 2019 through 11:59PM December 2nd, 2019 US Eastern Time

* Sale Prices
KORG, KARO, Kid Nepro, Irish Acts, Kelfar Technologies, K-Sounds, KApro, Bolder Sounds, Purgatory Creek Soundware, Sounds Of Planet, Soundiron, Q Up Arts: A massive 33% discount for all EXs titles, KRS titles and bundle packages.

Hurry - the sale ends at 11:59PM December 2nd !

Best regards,
KORG

[SKung]

It's not that older sound libraries sound 'bad'. The newer libraries got much more variations.

On Korg PA keyboards you got the 'DNC' sounds ('super articulation sounds' on Yamaha) that got some of these variations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej69-ptRNXI

You can press a key which substitutes the sounds you currently play. Modern sound libraries do have many of these variations. So many that you cannot control them while you play.
Here's an example from a guitar library:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_C_srcd3Fs
The product description on the product website speaks of:

dozens of keyswitches and contains extensive articulations

This is the same for orchestral libraries and the reason why many libraries have 50GB data and more.

But playing live on a keyboard you can't handle 'dozens' of keyswitches while playing.

[janrhansen]

It's not that older sound libraries sound 'bad'. The newer libraries got much more variations.

On Korg PA keyboards you got the 'DNC' sounds ('super articulation sounds' on Yamaha) that got some of these variations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej69-ptRNXI

You can press a key which substitutes the sounds you currently play. Modern sound libraries do have many of these variations. So many that you cannot control them while you play.
Here's an example from a guitar library:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_C_srcd3Fs
The product description on the product website speaks of:

dozens of keyswitches and contains extensive articulations

This is the same for orchestral libraries and the reason why many libraries have 50GB data and more.

But playing live on a keyboard you can't handle 'dozens' of keyswitches while playing.

Thats why its difficult to even know what each of us actually want in a "good" and "live playable" sound.
Some people really have some insane skills in using eg. highly advanced Kontakt scripted library sounds with loads of keyswitches, while others (like me) have more than enough with the 2 switches provided in the Kronos or eg a Yamaha Genos/Tyros.
The difference is, in the Kronos you will never get scripted libraries, but even a Genos has scripted SA sounds, like eg a Sax sound, that will automaticly add a glissando art. when you play a root and a 7'th or higher legato node. The difference here is, in a Kontakt library you can edit all these things, in a Tyros/Genos I believe you arent able to actually edit these script settings, its like an "Easy" mode to get a somewhat pro sounding emulation instead of having to learn and remember all those things you can do with a Kontakt sound.

I believe If that is what you are after (and that is why a Tyros 5/Genos really is an amazing thing even some people get itches just by hearing the word "arranger keyboard") if you want the "easy mode" go get an arranger board from Yamaha or Korg) Its by far so much easier to work with than the Kronos, and they actually do sound amazingly good right out of the box, wich is certainly not the case of the kronos. The Kronos you have to do some serious work with and has a slow learning curve to get what you really want. It does some amazingly things, but still don't even come close to hit the possibilities of eg Kontakt and the ease of use of Arranger boards.

[GregC]

I will venture into tech talk in Kronos

To be realistic, Kronos , being +8 years old, is going to have headroom limits.

The author of a 3rd party sample lib will have to work his invention within practical limits of Kronos.

IOW, it would not sound great if the sample lib pushed the Kronos processing limits and contained snap, pops, crackles, etc etc

One Kronos area is 16 bit. The sample libs are written to conform with that.

Lets imagine a Kronos 3 or whatever with 32 bit addressable. And more RAM.
Faster CPU.

I think this structure would allow a leap in quality, articulation, etc etc in the hands of a talented 3rd party sample lib creator/inventor.

Obviously, this is a what if. I hope this helps the O/p question.

[AntonySharmman]

The only sound library in any hardware workstation sampler that you can perform in real time a Symphonic Orchestra without using sequencers or
DAW multi-tracks is the WavesArt flagship Kronos Cinematic Suite with very advanced & sophisticated sound development in Combination environment
with all articulation of a real orchestra all integrated into the same sound !
Sorry for my input but some things needs to be told ...

[GregC]

The only sound library in any hardware workstation sampler that you can perform in real time a Symphonic Orchestra without using sequencers or
DAW multi-tracks is the WavesArt flagship Kronos Cinematic Suite with very advanced & sophisticated sound development in Combination environment
with all articulation of a real orchestra all integrated into the same sound !
Sorry for my input but some things needs to be told ...

Anybody with a discerning ear for music and orchestra can recognize
the sterling quality of your Cinematic Suite !

[Mike Conway]

I can leave you some of my own project examples. These were done with only a Kronos.

Shoot the Monster

AXEMAS 2

KApro orchestral program patch demo




These are songs that I made using two older libraries, KApro (KARO) EXs 50 & 51:

Unison Song #1

Unison Song #2

Unison Song #3



I like mixing both the old and newer libraries. The new libraries tend to use huge stacks that use up polyphony. For projects that use many MIDI tracks, I tend to thin out the hefty programs to one or two layers to get maximum polyphony. That means I don't use any programs that implement wavesequencing, which eats up the poly. (Wavesequencing uses twice the polyphony, per each layer, as normal HD-1 multisamples.)

The older libraries have programs that don't use that many layers or wavesequencing, so easy to isolate sounds and maximize polyphony.


If you want something for live performance, Antony Sharmman's libraries are geared for that. http://wavesart.eu/