Great thread. I have a KronosX88 with the weighted keys. I have been learning Hammond parts on it and have been able to muddle through but wonder if songs like Foreplay/Long Time and similar would be easier to play on a 61 or 73 key unweighted board.
Any suggestions as to what would be a good unweighted 61 key compliment that I could use to accomplish this? Looking for something that could take advantage of the Kronos vast organ and synth sounds. I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to hooking up a second keyboard and the term "controller" flies right over my head.
"Weighted" or "Un-weighted" ?
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Arizona Sage
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Kronos X88 OS 3.04
Mainstage/Omnisphere/Keyscape/Korg VST/M- Audio/Keylab controllers
Kemper Stage
PRS/Charvel/Jackson/Gretsch/Gibson guitars
Kronos X88 OS 3.04
Mainstage/Omnisphere/Keyscape/Korg VST/M- Audio/Keylab controllers
Kemper Stage
PRS/Charvel/Jackson/Gretsch/Gibson guitars
If you're going to get two keyboards (one weighted and one not), then I'd recommend getting a second keyboard as opposed to a controller. Yes, the controller may save you a bit of cash. However, while the Kronos can produce almost every sound you could use, there will always be something that it can't do that you want. So I'd look for a second keyboard that fills in the gap. Additionally, there have been occasional complaints about the polyphony of the Kronos. Having a second keyboard means that you've got more polyphony available. Just make sure that it's got decent MIDI capabilities (i.e. local off, changing the channel of the MIDI output, perhaps being able to split the keyboard to two separate MIDI channels, etc.).geoelectro wrote:I haven't play the Casio PX-5S but my brother just got one and loves it. Barely over 20 lbs. Plus, compared to a controller, it has it's own sounds.
As to which keyboards can do this, I don't know. It's not something I investigated. My second keyboard doesn't (currently) drive any Kronos sounds so I didn't pay attention to its MIDI capabilities. I got it for the capabilities it had that the Kronos didn't. But I'm sure that there are knowledgeable members of this forum who will be happy to tell you which keyboards can work as decent controllers as well as providing sounds that the Kronos can't (easily).
Perhaps the choice of 61 or 88 key Kronos could be driven by the other keyboard. If you're recommended an 88 key other keyboard with a good piano feel that provides good controller capabilities, some sounds that the Kronos can't make, and is lighter than the Kronos 88, then go for the Kronos 61. And visa versa.
At any rate, enjoy the adventure.
Fred
Korg: Kronos2 88
Other: Tyros 5 76, DGX-650, YPT-320, Fretted Clavichord, Upright Piano, DX-7, SY-99, eMu MPS (last three in attic)
RCM Certificates: Advanced Rudiments
Korg: Kronos2 88
Other: Tyros 5 76, DGX-650, YPT-320, Fretted Clavichord, Upright Piano, DX-7, SY-99, eMu MPS (last three in attic)
RCM Certificates: Advanced Rudiments
Thank you all for all your answers so far.
Much information and point of vue here.
I do intend to take it a step at a time and do want to dedicate some time everyday. (That is the exact same thing I'm trying to do with my younger son who has started the guitar about a year ago. Do practice everyday, even if it is only 5 minutes)
I'll try to find a store that has both the 61 and the 73/88 keys to try to get a feeling... But this might not be possible around here in Quebec/Canada. Most music stores here do not stock those kind of instrument, so there only available on special order.
I do tend to fall on the side of thinking that beginning with a "weighted" approach and adding in the futur an "unweighted" external keyboard/controller might be the path that I shall follow.
Between the 73 and 88, except for the obvious benefit for splits, do you find you often require the extra notes ? I do believe that almost only "classical" music do require the use for the full 88 keys ?
Are there any other benefit between the 73 and 88; a bit less/more expensive, bigger and heavier...
Much information and point of vue here.
I do intend to take it a step at a time and do want to dedicate some time everyday. (That is the exact same thing I'm trying to do with my younger son who has started the guitar about a year ago. Do practice everyday, even if it is only 5 minutes)
I'll try to find a store that has both the 61 and the 73/88 keys to try to get a feeling... But this might not be possible around here in Quebec/Canada. Most music stores here do not stock those kind of instrument, so there only available on special order.
I do tend to fall on the side of thinking that beginning with a "weighted" approach and adding in the futur an "unweighted" external keyboard/controller might be the path that I shall follow.
Between the 73 and 88, except for the obvious benefit for splits, do you find you often require the extra notes ? I do believe that almost only "classical" music do require the use for the full 88 keys ?
Are there any other benefit between the 73 and 88; a bit less/more expensive, bigger and heavier...
Actually, that's not true. The vast majority of piano rep only requires five octaves, although sometimes it's F to F rather than C to C. The need for the expanded compass of the modern piano only developed in the latter part of the nineteenth century during the late Romantic period.KK wrote:If you are serious about "classical" piano, 88 weighted keys is a must.ajean wrote:I do believe that almost only "classical" music do require the use for the full 88 keys ?
For a discussion on a different forum, I looked at the latest issue of Pianist Magazine. Of the eleven pieces of music included, only one of them went beyond five octaves, a piece by Listz that I won't be able to play unless I practice for years and years. (And I may require surgery since some of the chords were beyond my means.) Nine of them fit on a standard five octave (C to C) keyboard, while one of them fit on a five octave F to F keyboard.
However, one of the other participants of the forum said that an 88 note keyboard was essential for his piano playing. He played lounge piano, which routinely goes far beyond the majority range of classical playing. (I also enjoy the ultra low notes and the arpeggios climbing the keyboard. They sound nice, but they're not classical.)
The range of the grand staff from the C two ledger lines below the bass staff to the C two ledger lines above the treble staff is only four octaves. That's a lot of space to work with.
I grew up with pianos. I need to see 88 keys when I'm playing. But that's psychological, not essential for my repertoire. What's more important is that the 88 weighs 7 pounds more than the 73, and that the 88 is $300 more than the 73. If the extra weight and money is worth it to you, go with the bigger one. But if not, then you'll probably do fine with the smaller one. (Unless your teacher is a piano purist. But then the teacher may have problems with anything other than an acoustic piano.)
(Actually, if you plan on using a lot of splits and want room to work with, more keys is also useful.)
Fred
Korg: Kronos2 88
Other: Tyros 5 76, DGX-650, YPT-320, Fretted Clavichord, Upright Piano, DX-7, SY-99, eMu MPS (last three in attic)
RCM Certificates: Advanced Rudiments
Korg: Kronos2 88
Other: Tyros 5 76, DGX-650, YPT-320, Fretted Clavichord, Upright Piano, DX-7, SY-99, eMu MPS (last three in attic)
RCM Certificates: Advanced Rudiments
One would think you'd find a good store in Montreal. I'll ask around.ajean wrote:I'll try to find a store that has both the 61 and the 73/88 keys to try to get a feeling... But this might not be possible around here in Quebec/Canada. Most music stores here do not stock those kind of instrument, so there only available on special order.
Fred
Korg: Kronos2 88
Other: Tyros 5 76, DGX-650, YPT-320, Fretted Clavichord, Upright Piano, DX-7, SY-99, eMu MPS (last three in attic)
RCM Certificates: Advanced Rudiments
Korg: Kronos2 88
Other: Tyros 5 76, DGX-650, YPT-320, Fretted Clavichord, Upright Piano, DX-7, SY-99, eMu MPS (last three in attic)
RCM Certificates: Advanced Rudiments
I mentioned earlier that for anyone who is serious about studying great masters répertoire, that yes you need the whole compass and with weighted keys. The OP can always figure this out himself asking piano teachers what they think should be an OK instrument for practice. On the other hand, if someone just want to learn a few pieces from easy to intermediate level, a 6 octave compass instrument could probably be OK.fcoulter wrote:Actually, that's not true.
Sorry but here, you are totally wrong. I've been playing for 40+ years and many great masters from the early Romantic including Beethoven, Chopin, Schubert and others have compositions requiring more than 5 octaves. Only a few examples amongst many : Beethoven's opus 57, written in 1806, requires from F1 to C7. His opus 111, composed in 1822, requires 6 octaves (C1 to C7). Many others in between as well. Same with Schubert, Chopin, etc.fcoulter wrote:The vast majority of piano rep only requires five octaves, although sometimes it's F to F rather than C to C. The need for the expanded compass of the modern piano only developed in the latter part of the nineteenth century during the late Romantic period.
The OP is thinking about purchasing a Kronos here, which is IMHO the most advanced synth available today. So again, if someone is serious about learning piano, I strongly recommend to choose the full compass keyboard. An analogy I'm thinking of is a guitarist looking for a great instrument would not limit himself to a 4-string or 5-string guitar. 88 keys is simply standard, just like a 6 string guitar.
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psionic311
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I agree that if the OP is *very* serious about learning classical music, he may as well get the 88 key.
But for every other reason -- cost, weight, space, stage practicality, combis/splits - the 76 key is more than adequate. I believe there are only a precious few classical pieces that won't fit on 76 keys.
76 key weighted + 61 key semi-weighted MIDI controller is an ideal combo, with the 61 key as a later addition only if needed...
But for every other reason -- cost, weight, space, stage practicality, combis/splits - the 76 key is more than adequate. I believe there are only a precious few classical pieces that won't fit on 76 keys.
76 key weighted + 61 key semi-weighted MIDI controller is an ideal combo, with the 61 key as a later addition only if needed...
Largely from a similar thread just posted elsewhere...
Piano plays best from weighted action. IMO, piano does not play well from the Kronos 61; it may play better from the different action in the LS 88, few have had their hands on that one yet, but I think it can be confidently predicted that it still won't play as well as from the RH3 weighted action.
Synth is a bit more of a judgment call. Personally, I'm okay with a weighted action for synth... organ is where it really falls down. So if you're not much of an organ player, I'd lean toward the 73 or 88 weighted versions. Of course, many here use (at least) two boards, which allows them to have the action they want for the sound they want.
73 vs 88 is obviously a difference in size/weight/price. In terms of functionality, it comes down to two things:
(1) Can you play the piano parts you'd want to play while keeping within the 73 key range? That's easy to test... play your more wide ranging stuff on an 88 and see if you can easily stay within the range of the 73. (Note that if you just need an occasional note outside that range for a certain piece, you can create presets with octave shifts, so you can get more keys at the top at the expense of keys at the bottom or vice versa, which may solve the problem if the piece skews toward one side of the board of the other.)
(2) If you intend to create splits (whether to play different sounds with your left and right hands, or to have instant access to different sounds over different areas of the keyboard), that's the other place where the extra keys can be helpful. Like the issue of which action you want to play from, this is also something that you could choose to address instead by adding a second keyboard. (Using a MIDI cable, the second keyboard can trigger sounds that are in the Kronos as well.) Depending on the complexity of the split setup you're trying to achieve, though, even then, an 88 can be beneficial even if you're adding another keyboard (for example, to give you instantaneous access to 3 or 4 sounds simultaneously, while still having a good number of keys available for each of them). But all that really depends on your repertoire and how you like to work. One sound at a time can be sufficient, two sounds available at a time can be not enough...
Personally, I'd be inclined to go with a Kronos 61 plus an 88 of your choice to control it as well, unless you (a) have some overriding need to do everything on the one keyboard, or (b) already have some other 61 you could attach to a Kronos 88.
The $700 price difference between the 61 and the 88 could pay for a Casio Privia or Kawai ES-100/110 or Roland FP-30, any of which should provide you a perfectly nice 88 experience with the Kronos (it's personal preference as to which feels best). The action in the Kronos 61 is widely considered one of the best non-hammer actions, so you could also make the case that the 61 gives you a more highly regarded Korg action than does the 88, as opinions are more divided about the RH3.
Piano plays best from weighted action. IMO, piano does not play well from the Kronos 61; it may play better from the different action in the LS 88, few have had their hands on that one yet, but I think it can be confidently predicted that it still won't play as well as from the RH3 weighted action.
Synth is a bit more of a judgment call. Personally, I'm okay with a weighted action for synth... organ is where it really falls down. So if you're not much of an organ player, I'd lean toward the 73 or 88 weighted versions. Of course, many here use (at least) two boards, which allows them to have the action they want for the sound they want.
73 vs 88 is obviously a difference in size/weight/price. In terms of functionality, it comes down to two things:
(1) Can you play the piano parts you'd want to play while keeping within the 73 key range? That's easy to test... play your more wide ranging stuff on an 88 and see if you can easily stay within the range of the 73. (Note that if you just need an occasional note outside that range for a certain piece, you can create presets with octave shifts, so you can get more keys at the top at the expense of keys at the bottom or vice versa, which may solve the problem if the piece skews toward one side of the board of the other.)
(2) If you intend to create splits (whether to play different sounds with your left and right hands, or to have instant access to different sounds over different areas of the keyboard), that's the other place where the extra keys can be helpful. Like the issue of which action you want to play from, this is also something that you could choose to address instead by adding a second keyboard. (Using a MIDI cable, the second keyboard can trigger sounds that are in the Kronos as well.) Depending on the complexity of the split setup you're trying to achieve, though, even then, an 88 can be beneficial even if you're adding another keyboard (for example, to give you instantaneous access to 3 or 4 sounds simultaneously, while still having a good number of keys available for each of them). But all that really depends on your repertoire and how you like to work. One sound at a time can be sufficient, two sounds available at a time can be not enough...
Personally, I'd be inclined to go with a Kronos 61 plus an 88 of your choice to control it as well, unless you (a) have some overriding need to do everything on the one keyboard, or (b) already have some other 61 you could attach to a Kronos 88.
The $700 price difference between the 61 and the 88 could pay for a Casio Privia or Kawai ES-100/110 or Roland FP-30, any of which should provide you a perfectly nice 88 experience with the Kronos (it's personal preference as to which feels best). The action in the Kronos 61 is widely considered one of the best non-hammer actions, so you could also make the case that the 61 gives you a more highly regarded Korg action than does the 88, as opinions are more divided about the RH3.
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SanderXpander
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As a full time pianist and teacher I would strongly recommend getting an actual piano if you want to learn piano.
If you don't care about learning the piano per se but you want to learn to play the instrument you bought, then anything works. I find I have more control with a weighted keyboard, but it's much more pleasant playing synth parts or hammond parts on an unweighted board. Like many people have suggested, you'll likely end up getting a second board or controller with the "other" keybed, so choose what works for you right now.
If you don't care about learning the piano per se but you want to learn to play the instrument you bought, then anything works. I find I have more control with a weighted keyboard, but it's much more pleasant playing synth parts or hammond parts on an unweighted board. Like many people have suggested, you'll likely end up getting a second board or controller with the "other" keybed, so choose what works for you right now.
I just purchased a Kronos 2 73key-weighted. Absolutely love the feel of the keyboard. I have played numerous keyboards over the years from Hammond B3's to real pianos. Had an original Mini-Moog, ARP Odyssey, Mellotron (talk about a strange feel), Clavinet (the funk master), and dozens of synths. Some nice, some junk.
In my opinion, the RH3 is a superb keyboard. Very responsive, has good travel, and solid return. A really great all around keyboard. If you want to utilize the velocity sensitivity the Kronos offers, weighted keys provide a great sense of dynamics. They just seem to make playing orchestral sounds more intuitive. When you are mixing horns, strings, woodwinds, etc it will 'feel' your emotion. Pianists will take to it like a duck to water.
Several posters have suggested two boards and I completely agree. I would suggest trying several before choosing a second synth, an unweighted controller, or perhaps even an arranger. I have an old Alesis QS6.1 that has a really nice feel. I also have a couple of Roland's that I tolerate.
One warning. Money might not be the best indication of quality. I recently tried a Yamaha Montage 7. That keyboard 'feels' like a piece of junk. Didn't take me 5 seconds to mark it off my list.
Happy hunting.
In my opinion, the RH3 is a superb keyboard. Very responsive, has good travel, and solid return. A really great all around keyboard. If you want to utilize the velocity sensitivity the Kronos offers, weighted keys provide a great sense of dynamics. They just seem to make playing orchestral sounds more intuitive. When you are mixing horns, strings, woodwinds, etc it will 'feel' your emotion. Pianists will take to it like a duck to water.
Several posters have suggested two boards and I completely agree. I would suggest trying several before choosing a second synth, an unweighted controller, or perhaps even an arranger. I have an old Alesis QS6.1 that has a really nice feel. I also have a couple of Roland's that I tolerate.
One warning. Money might not be the best indication of quality. I recently tried a Yamaha Montage 7. That keyboard 'feels' like a piece of junk. Didn't take me 5 seconds to mark it off my list.
Happy hunting.
4GodnWV wrote:I just purchased a Kronos 2 73key-weighted. Absolutely love the feel of the keyboard. I have played numerous keyboards over the years from Hammond B3's to real pianos. Had an original Mini-Moog, ARP Odyssey, Mellotron (talk about a strange feel), Clavinet (the funk master), and dozens of synths. Some nice, some junk.
In my opinion, the RH3 is a superb keyboard. Very responsive, has good travel, and solid return. A really great all around keyboard. If you want to utilize the velocity sensitivity the Kronos offers, weighted keys provide a great sense of dynamics. They just seem to make playing orchestral sounds more intuitive. When you are mixing horns, strings, woodwinds, etc it will 'feel' your emotion. Pianists will take to it like a duck to water.
Several posters have suggested two boards and I completely agree. I would suggest trying several before choosing a second synth, an unweighted controller, or perhaps even an arranger. I have an old Alesis QS6.1 that has a really nice feel. I also have a couple of Roland's that I tolerate.
One warning. Money might not be the best indication of quality. I recently tried a Yamaha Montage 7. That keyboard 'feels' like a piece of junk. Didn't take me 5 seconds to mark it off my list.
Happy hunting.
K2 Kronos 88, Mojo 61, Korg CX3, Roland FANTOM 7
benny ray wrote:4GodnWV wrote:I just purchased a Kronos 2 73key-weighted. Absolutely love the feel of the keyboard. I have played numerous keyboards over the years from Hammond B3's to real pianos. Had an original Mini-Moog, ARP Odyssey, Mellotron (talk about a strange feel), Clavinet (the funk master), and dozens of synths. Some nice, some junk.
In my opinion, the RH3 is a superb keyboard. Very responsive, has good travel, and solid return. A really great all around keyboard. If you want to utilize the velocity sensitivity the Kronos offers, weighted keys provide a great sense of dynamics. They just seem to make playing orchestral sounds more intuitive. When you are mixing horns, strings, woodwinds, etc it will 'feel' your emotion. Pianists will take to it like a duck to water.
Several posters have suggested two boards and I completely agree. I would suggest trying several before choosing a second synth, an unweighted controller, or perhaps even an arranger. I have an old Alesis QS6.1 that has a really nice feel. I also have a couple of Roland's that I tolerate.
One warning. Money might not be the best indication of quality. I recently tried a Yamaha Montage 7. That keyboard 'feels' like a piece of junk. Didn't take me 5 seconds to mark it off my list.
I have to disagree on the keybed on the Montage 8. The keybed was fast and felt really responsive like a piano. I thought the keybed was a strong point on the MONTAGE. Quiet and felt really good. I don't like how the touchscreen is layed out. The Montage is rather large , bulky but sounds good. But for me overall I still like the Kronos better. The pianos were clear and spot on but the leslie sim was terrible. Happy hunting.
K2 Kronos 88, Mojo 61, Korg CX3, Roland FANTOM 7
Totally agree with your post !4GodnWV wrote:I just purchased a Kronos 2 73key-weighted. Absolutely love the feel of the keyboard. I have played numerous keyboards over the years from Hammond B3's to real pianos. Had an original Mini-Moog, ARP Odyssey, Mellotron (talk about a strange feel), Clavinet (the funk master), and dozens of synths. Some nice, some junk.
In my opinion, the RH3 is a superb keyboard. Very responsive, has good travel, and solid return. A really great all around keyboard. If you want to utilize the velocity sensitivity the Kronos offers, weighted keys provide a great sense of dynamics. They just seem to make playing orchestral sounds more intuitive. When you are mixing horns, strings, woodwinds, etc it will 'feel' your emotion. Pianists will take to it like a duck to water.
That's funny about the Mellotron, as I also owned one along with a C3, etc. I remember being able to make the notes go lower in pitch by pressing very hard on the keys/capstans ! It was a very special instrument. I also installed a 3W lightbulb inside the cabinet which was on 24 hours a day to kill the humidity and ensure all tapes would fall down correctly.
For above reasons, i allways have 2 keysbeds in my setup, one weighted, one synth keyboard...
But if i had to choose a single keybed, that had to do it all, out of all the keybeds in the world, it would be the weighted kronos RH3 either in73 or 88 .. its just that good of a trade off...
Then there is the question, 73 or 88? Normally o would say 73 for gigging and transportinb, 88 keys for at home.. the extra keys are definately worth it to me, espescially when having multiple zones, and using keys to trigger things in a performance... but also for people that plan to do their piano lessons on the keyboard, 88 keys is a pre..
Just my 2 cents, comming from a home player, thats still learning things every day himself..
But if i had to choose a single keybed, that had to do it all, out of all the keybeds in the world, it would be the weighted kronos RH3 either in73 or 88 .. its just that good of a trade off...
Then there is the question, 73 or 88? Normally o would say 73 for gigging and transportinb, 88 keys for at home.. the extra keys are definately worth it to me, espescially when having multiple zones, and using keys to trigger things in a performance... but also for people that plan to do their piano lessons on the keyboard, 88 keys is a pre..
Just my 2 cents, comming from a home player, thats still learning things every day himself..
Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
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