Bush or Kerry

[Odinmoon]

Yes I think that its time to close this thread. So I will no longer add to it. But I thank all of you for your opinions. This thread was good to see the many opinions of people. And gives us an idea of how hard it is to get a common agreement. This is the problem of this modern world. The next poll I will do is about the weather. Naa we will debate that one as well.

regards Terry

[Morbius]

Dear Morb...thanks for the clarification, dude.
See? We only know what we are led to believe, however this goes for both sides.

That's for sure. It's not always easy to find the facts. All depends on the source and their affiliations, too.

All in all this comes down to a personal preferance, and I for one will not comment on this thread any more, just because it is getting down-right ugly. Some of us would thrive in an election-camp...and that is sad.
Honestly I'm quite dissappointed in some of the comments made here, because I have always believed that musicians and other artists have a much broader view of the world, because they/we are capable of thinking "outside the box". Seeing that this is also a myth, I will not comment any more in this thread.

Me too. That's why I've stayed out of it altogether, except for supplying some factual data. Otherwise I just stay away from this sort of thing. Thing is, Wings, you never really know who you're dealing with online. Could be a teenager with little knowledge of history; could be a crusty ol' man with a cynical viewpoint. You just never know. Everyone's entitled to their opinion (at least in the U.S.).

At any rate, unless discussing with close friends, I tend to abide by the local 'pub' law, and that is "don't discuss politics, religion, or software piracy."

Morbius

[Morbius]

The next poll I will do is about the weather. Naa we will debate that one as well.
regards Terry

Oh....that's an easy one.

"The weather today is hot and crappy....continued crappy through tomorrow."



Morbius

[Wings]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion (at least in the U.S.).
At any rate, unless discussing with close friends, I tend to abide by the local 'pub' law, and that is "don't discuss politics, religion, or software piracy."
Morbius

Both also count for Norway and norwegians...

Cheers mate!

[Wings]

Thing is, Wings, you never really know who you're dealing with online. Could be a teenager with little knowledge of history; could be a crusty ol' man with a cynical viewpoint.
Morbius

For the record; I'm not a teenager, xept if you ask my parents. And I'm not crusty and old, xept if you ask my wife.

[Morbius]

For the record; I'm not a teenager, xept if you ask my parents. And I'm not crusty and old, xept if you ask my wife.

I'm only a teenager again in my dreams (Do I want to go through that again!!?? I think not!), and I'm old, but not yet crusty - except for around the edges a little bit. It's the Arizona sun.

M

[AnthonyB]

Well, this is an international forum with posters from France, Italy, Canada, United States, Ireland, Austrailia, Norway and so forth. the Poll suggests Kerry is lesading 54% against 27% for bush. While Results are indicative and may not reflect public/world opinion - it does say something. A quick mathematical equation will tell you that 27x2 is 54!

[McHale]

Did you ever get past the cover? I mean did you even read a page of it?. I doubt it. I have and I'm not a Muslim.

Yup, in fact, here's some fun facts about Muhammad... These facts alone (with sources by the way) are enough for me to judge Muslim is a screwed up, goof ball religion. I don't respect it... especially since after 9/11 none of the Muslim scholars or groups would seperate themselves from the Muslim extermist wack jobs that attacked us.

HISTORICAL DATA ABOUT MUHAMMAD

* Mohammed is estimated by scholars to have had somewhere between 15-25 wives. All agree that he had 9 wives at the time of his death (5 more than the Quran permits for other Muslims)!

* Earlier, he fell in love with Zeinab, his cousin, and wife of his adopted son Zeid. He then received a "revelation" from Allah that it was permissible to marry the wife of an adopted son. Zeid divorced Zeinab so that Mohammed could marry her.

Sources: Ernest Kellett, A Short History of Religions. New York: Books for
Libraries Press, 1971, P. 343, and Washington Irving, Life of Mahomet. New York: Dutton & Sons, 1911, p. 231.

* On his deathbed, Mohammed said: "Do not fear those who disbelieve, fear me" and called for the conquest of Christianity.

Source, Essad Bey, Mohammed. New York: Longmans, Green & Co., 1936, p. 330.


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Marriage to Six-Year Old

In 624 Abu Bakr (Muhammad’s daily companion and one of his first believers and successor of Muhammad) gave Muhammad his daughter Aisha when she was six years old, although the actual marriage was not consummated until she was nine. This fact is uncontested by all Muslim scholars and chroniclers without exception). At the time of their marriage Muhammad was 54 years old (the age of her grandfather) – a difference of 45 years in their ages.


Aisha herself testified to these facts:

“The messenger of God betrothed me when I was six years old and then married me when I was nine years old.”

Source: Sahih Muslim (by Imam al-Mawawy), vol. 3, p. 577.

Islamic law has codified this principle of non-consent for under-age women based on Muhammad’s precedent:

“A father may give consent to have his young virgin daughter married without obtaining her permission, for she does not have a choice, exactly as Abu Bakr El Sadiq did to his daughter Aisha, when she was six years old. He married her to the prophet Muhammad without her permission.”

Source: Ibn Hazam (acknowledged by all Muslims as one of the greatest scholars on Islamic Law) in his al-Muhalla (“The Sweetened”). Vol. 6, part 9, pp. 458-460.

Abd El Schafi, author of Behind the Veil stated in response: “These are cruel, hard words and iniquitous Islamic principles which the free human conscience utterly rejects and detests because it is related to the most important subject in the girl’s life, that is, her body and her future” (p. 83).


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Polygamy, Concubines, and Mistresses in Islam

“No one is allowed to wed more than four women, but he is permitted however, in addition to them, to buy (women), as many as he wants.”

Source: Ibn Hazam, vol. 6, part 9, pp. 441, 467.

However, exceptions were made for the Prophet and his successors:

Muhammad had 11 wives and an Egyptian concubine
Umar Ibn al-Khattab had 7 wives plus 2 maid-salves

Uthman Ibn Affan had 8 wives

Ali Ibn Abi Talib (cousin of Muhammad) married 10 women plus 10 concubines and maid-slaves for a total of 29

Al-Hasan Ibn Ali (grandson of Muhammad and called by the Prophet “the master of the youth of Paradise”) married 70 women (and was said to sometimes divorce two women in a day!).

Sources: Biographies such as Ibn Kathir’s, Bidaya and the Nihaya, vol. 7 & 8, and Suyuti’s, Chonicles of the Caliphs.


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Marriage to wives of men killed by Muslims, including the murder of Jews

It was standard practice, and made legal by Muhammad, to take as a “wife” in addition to captives, the wives of men killed in battle (or executed). On one occasion when Muhammad launched an attack on a Jewish tribe he personally witnessed their beheading and then took some of their widows to bed. Semitic scholar and historian A.B. Davidson (a professor at New College, Edinburgh) recorded one such instance:

“On one day he caused 800 Jews to be beheaded in cold blood, himself standing by and watching the butchery; and in the evening, to efface the unpleasant impression from his mind, and give a more happy turn to his ideas, he took home the wife of one of the murdered chiefs, and added her to his harem.”

Source: A.B. Davidson, Biblical and Literary Essays, ed. J.A. Peterson (London: Hodder & Stroughton, 1902), p. 228.


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Sexual License in Islam – The Temporary Contractual Marriage

According to all Muslim scholars (especially in Sahih Muslim) the temporary, contractual marriage was made lawful by Muhammad simply to satisfy the sexual passions of his soldiers. The “marriage” only had to last 3 days, after which the woman could be deserted and left without any rights. Only the fact that it is temporary a “marriage” separates it from outright fornication and adultery (forbidden in Islam), but there is practically no difference. It was practiced during the beginning of the Islamic era (during the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Ibn Abu ‘Umar) and is continued in practice today by over 100 million Shi’ite Muslims worldwide.

Concerning this practice the following Islamic authority states:

“While in the army, Allah’s Apostle came to us and said, ‘You have been allowed to have Muta (“pleasure”), so do it.’ If a man and a woman agree to marry temporarily, their marriage should last for three nights …”

Source: Sahih al-Bukbari, part 7, p. 37.


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BRIEF MUSLIM HISTORY

A.D. 610: Mohammed claims to be God's prophet and founds the religion of
Islam based on his claim to receive a new revelation of Scripture which he called
the Quran.

622: Mohammed fled persecution by fellow Arabs in Mecca and went to
Medina. His flight is known as the Hijira ("migration"). He won over the
people of Medina, raised an army and returned to Mecca in 630, killing 600
of the 900 men of his Qurash (Arab) tribe.

630: Muslim conquest of Mecca and the Arabian Peninsula. This conquest
(called jihad) later spread to the Middle East, North Africa, Iran and
Turkey.

632: Mohammed died in Medina of a fever at age 63. His tomb is there to
this day.

638: Muslim conquest of Jerusalem (6 years after Mohammed's death)

691: Dome of the Rock built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Al Aksa
Mosque also built at that time.

-Mc

[marcus]

As For The Weather.....

There will be 100% chance of darkness tonight, with a few scattered stars?
...and to subsiquently be followed by 100% chance of daylight [unless you live under a mushroom ]

.............................................................Now for the Sports>>>>>>>>

[laughing_bear]

....enough for me to judge Muslim is a screwed up, goof ball religion. I don't respect it...

McHale....

Look at your above statement....

Seriously, you studied 4 years Theology and the above statement is your conclusion? Frankly, I doubt that you are educated in Theology at all, but thats my personal opinion....

Officially, I ask you gently to stop bashing religion of whatever kind, this is an international forum where people of all kinds join in a peaceful manner, mutual respect is the key here McHale, and you do not show a lot of that recently I might add, your display of disrespect towards Islam has no space here.

It is your private view and you are entitled to it.

But please stop bashing other peoples beliefs as you did above, this is totally inappropriate, offensive to the maximum, and disrespectfull.

I am confident you understand that.
Thanks

[rob]

Yup, in fact, here's some fun facts about Muhammad... These facts alone (with sources by the way) are enough for me to judge Muslim is a screwed up, goof ball religion. I don't respect it... especially since after 9/11 none of the Muslim scholars or groups would seperate themselves from the Muslim extermist wack jobs that attacked us.

HISTORICAL DATA ABOUT MUHAMMAD

* Mohammed is estimated by scholars to have had somewhere between 15-25 wives. All agree that he had 9 wives at the time of his death (5 more than the Quran permits for other Muslims)!

* Earlier, he fell in love with Zeinab, his cousin, and wife of his adopted son Zeid. He then received a "revelation" from Allah that it was permissible to marry the wife of an adopted son. Zeid divorced Zeinab so that Mohammed could marry her.

Sources: Ernest Kellett, A Short History of Religions. New York: Books for
Libraries Press, 1971, P. 343, and Washington Irving, Life of Mahomet. New York: Dutton & Sons, 1911, p. 231.

* On his deathbed, Mohammed said: "Do not fear those who disbelieve, fear me" and called for the conquest of Christianity.

Source, Essad Bey, Mohammed. New York: Longmans, Green & Co., 1936, p. 330.


-Mc

If you are going to just Google stuff and paste it in - you should not edit it and you should give your source.
I found the above at http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/news-je ... ammed.html

I found this piece under the title - Jerry Falwell Ministries HISTORICAL DATA ABOUT MUHAMMAD

And we all know Jerry Falwell is so centered and fair-minded (that's sarcastic in case you actually believe anything that pr$ck says)

FYI - Most religion has a history of violence and intolerance.

[laughing_bear]

Yeah, well spotted Rob, I was wondering whether I point that source out in my above mail, but I thought I spare this embarassment.... Well... too late

[McHale]

ok ok... i think i get it now:

ripping on citizens of the US - fair game

ripping on the president of the US - fair game

ripping on the policies of the US - fair game

ripping on me personally - fair game

cutting and pasting a single guy's liberally slanted view on iraq - fair game

me copying and pasting indesputable facts about the religion that is solely responsible for terrorism - not fair game

gotcha.

wouldn't it be just easier to accept the facts as truth than dispute the source?

and it's too late to start the "someone's feelings may get hurt" crap. did you miss every other post or is it you're just not as sensitive when it comes to basing bush and the US?

-Mc

[yamaha135]

insanity

[Odinmoon]

Today There will be a lot of weather. And tomorrow there will be some more weather.

regards Terry