PA500 strangeness of styles

[montatore]

some styles have a really weird volume 'bump' when I operate the fill-ins, which is really annoying. Is it some settings that I have to disengage? some styles play normally

[Fransman]

I don't have noticed the problem you mentioned.
Can you give examples (names) of the styles it concerns?

I have programmed my keyboard so, that when I use fill-in 1, the style variation goes up 1 step.
When I push fill-in 2, the style variation goes down 1 step.
When I push break, style variation goes back to style variation 1 (no matter in what style variation I was).
This helps me a lot with my style playing.

I had to practice a while before my use of the fill-ins went smoothly.
You have to pick the right moment to push the button.

[johan]

Sadly to say, great many styles are really hastily put together, I keep running into this problems ( and many others ) from day one.
There is nothing you can do pushing the buttons.
The only way to fix the troublesome parts of a style is to edit the style, thus creating another one.
Sometimes it needs minor adjustments, sometimes it may be very laborious.
If it is only the volume of fills then you could edit just the "expression" values of sounds for fill 1-3 to your musical taste. Mind you, while editing any style you are creating a different one, so be careful not to overwrite something you desire to keep for the future projects. I usually copy the given style to my Favorites and work on it there.

Yes, we want nice trouble free styles, but we have to cook with what is in the fridge today.
Cheers
Johan

[Fransman]

great many styles are really hastily put together, I keep running into this problems ( and many others ) from day one.

I really don't agree with you; I think the Korgstyles are just great!
And I've played with them for about 3 years now, most of the time non-edited factory styles.

Can you give examples of styles that contain flaws/problems?

[karmathanever]

Sadly to say, great many styles are really hastily put together, I keep running into this problems ( and many others ) from day one.
There is nothing you can do pushing the buttons.
The only way to fix the troublesome parts of a style is to edit the style, thus creating another one.

I have never had a problem with any Korg styles from the i3 through to my current PA2Xpro.
I don't agree that they have been hastily put together, however if you are having problems maybe we can help but we need some specifics/examples/samples etc...

Could this be an issue with the PA500?

Pete

[Thoraldus]

Sadly to say, great many styles are really hastily put together, I keep running into this problems ( and many others ) from day one.
There is nothing you can do pushing the buttons.
The only way to fix the troublesome parts of a style is to edit the style, thus creating another one.

I have never had a problem with any Korg styles from the i3 through to my current PA2Xpro.
I don't agree that they have been hastily put together, however if you are having problems maybe we can help but we need some specifics/examples/samples etc...

Could this be an issue with the PA500?

Pete

I don't agree either, besides if a style isn't quite what you want it to be it only takes a few moments to tweak it to your needs or replace it entirely.

Could you give some examples so we're not second guessing each other here?

By the way, the factory styles can be directly edited without having to create a new style. I've customized dozens of the factory styles to suit my personal tastes.

[johan]

The subject of montatore's question slipped away.
I was only trying to help him with his problems, which I too am aware of in some styles. Did you?

There might be some other glitches in PA500, I have PA800, but the solution remains the same as I said before. Editing a style or creating a new one is not matter of few moments, no way. Now, it also depends on what you call a style editing.

In response to your challenging questions, please read my post from Apr.20,2011 FACTORY PRESET STYLES and see what others are saying about the styles. Interesting, right Pete ?

Everybody likes one's own musical performance including myself, however there is too much music, personal preferences and levels of musical skills and that makes any discussions about it quiet fruitless. Just play.

Peace and cheers
Johan

[Fransman]

No, the issue is not about taste or preferences.
It is about flaws / failures in the factory styles (particularly in Fill-ins).
As you put it "hastly put together".

Give some examples to illustrate what you mean by that.
Which styles, which fill ins or vars?

[johan]

Hi everybody,

it seems I am being challenged on my statement " some styles hastily put together " and some people here demand a proof of it. Why ? I do not understand.

If you feel and hear that everything is great, fantastic and flawless then there is nothing you can help anybody because there's no problem for you therefore there is nothing recognized to be fixed.

Use of this kind of electronic keyboards vary from person to person.
You either like it as it is and play unedited styles ( perhaps with minor volume and instrumentation adjustments ) or you have your desired project in your head and you will beat the instrument to get your ideas out to your desire.
Sometimes I am asked by singers of different genres and styles to copy some songs from a CD in different key suitable for them. Then the real hunt for styles and heavy editing starts. They want the music as close to original as possible. Many times there is no style even close to anything.

I do not know montatore's exact problem and the fills he is talking about, neither I have PA500 to check these things out, but I hear many problems
of similar musical issues on my PA800 v.2.01. Here are some examples:

In Ballad bank - style Blue Ballad - in the fill 1,2 there is a guitar sound played by ACC5. There isn't this guitar in var 1,2,3 only in var 4. If you push the fills playing var 1-3 it might create the feel of a bump in volume.
Musically speaking, is in this band one guitar player just waiting by to play the fills ?

In Dance bank - style Sister & Girl - Intro 1.
After the string lift the music is not on first beat ( actually I have difficulties to count what is happening there ), the music consolidates only after the first 3 or 4 bars. This chaos is not interesting, it is unmusical screw up.

In Pop bank - style Bavarian Rock - what the heck is a bavarian rock ? Maybe a square rock rolling down the Alps, definitely not a music, starting with Intro 1. There is one bar missing at the end of this intro, again musically speaking. Musicians play in 8,12,16 bars parts and the forlifts are not part of it. This intro is 1 bar + 7 odd bars weirdo.

I could go on and on justifying my cause, but this is pointless if one doesn't hear or even likes these things.

Obviously, the styles were created by different people with different minds and skills. I can easily recognise the groups of styles done by the same person. Too bad the excellent styles from i3 were chopped down and cheated. Why? Makes me sad.

A perfectly created, instrumented and ballanced, ready to use example
is SOUL in Funk&Soul bank. Styles should be at least that good, Yamaha does it with Tyroses, but I need badly the superior sequencer in Korg, priorities rule.

Cheers
Johan

[karmathanever]

Hi Johan

Sometimes I am asked by singers of different genres and styles to copy some songs from a CD in different key suitable for them. Then the real hunt for styles and heavy editing starts. They want the music as close to original as possible. Many times there is no style even close to anything

We would need a million plus styles to satisfy that need. If you are backing an artist who wants "original" backings then get the PA3X and remove the vocal from the original recording - presto - you have an authentic backing track. To expect style to match songs would be ridiculous - if Korg produced the PA3X with all the styles being "Styles for Songs" they might be lucky to sell 2 keyboards. Seriously, if you are needing authenticity in terms of original recordings then you are into MP3 backing tracks or MIDI. You can NEVER expect styles to cover any song completely authentically. What we should expect from Korg is a set of styles covering many aspects of many genres - so far they have achieved that 100%.

In Ballad bank - style Blue Ballad - in the fill 1,2 there is a guitar sound played by ACC5. There isn't this guitar in var 1,2,3 only in var 4. If you push the fills playing var 1-3 it might create the feel of a bump in volume.
Musically speaking, is in this band one guitar player just waiting by to play the fills ?

Just checked this on my PA2Xpro (same style) - I use this style a lot and I must say I have never noticed any "bump in volume" - you are correct regarding the instrumentation but it all sounds very balanced and tasteful on the PA2XPro. I suggest you remove the guitar track from the FILLs or reduce its volume.

In Dance bank - style Sister & Girl - Intro 1.
After the string lift the music is not on first beat ( actually I have difficulties to count what is happening there ), the music consolidates only after the first 3 or 4 bars. This chaos is not interesting, it is unmusical screw up.

Sorry Johan but this is anything BUT a musical screw up - I think it is pretty cool intro - you need to count and feel the accent which is on the last 1/8th note of the first and fourth measure of the intro. This is absolutely in time - your tempo lights and "measure count down" should help you. This ain't an unmusical screw up - this is music my friend - it is a very cool intro IMHO.

In Pop bank - style Bavarian Rock - what the heck is a bavarian rock ? Maybe a square rock rolling down the Alps, definitely not a music, starting with Intro 1. There is one bar missing at the end of this intro, again musically speaking. Musicians play in 8,12,16 bars parts and the forlifts are not part of it. This intro is 1 bar + 7 odd bars weirdo.

I do not have such a style on my PA2Xpro so can't comment. I have a "Bavarian Pop" style but that has a basic 4-measure intro.

Too bad the excellent styles from i3 were chopped down and cheated. Why? Makes me sad.

So - why not use the i3 styles - I do

A perfectly created, instrumented and ballanced, ready to use example is SOUL in Funk&Soul bank. Styles should be at least that good, Yamaha does it with Tyroses

Personally could never agree with that - Tyros styles are basic and over repetitive - but have some nice intros and endings - total lack of authenticity in VARs and lack of chord recognition variation. Korg leaves Yamaha for dead in that area IMHO.

Cheers

Pete

[johan]

Sorry Pete,

you are missing my point. Strangely enough, somehow I knew what the response will be like.
The issue is about musical taste and personal preferences and style editing.

What I do not like I can fix or rework totally by editing the style. I don't need a million of styles, I need one to start with.
Use of styles for me is just a shortcut, for custom work and fine stuff I have 16 track option. I don't need any help here and yes, I am doing fine for the last 20 years.

All styles are always repetitive and will worn you out over time, so editing and creating styles in a very beneficial learning experience.

One can't play factory set style nicely as they are. At least one must edit
the " wrap around points ", unless you play everything in the key the style was created. You and I know this since i3 keyboard and it still works the same way.

I hope it will help montatore to deal with his problems and that was my only intention here.

I appologize for mentioning the politically incorrect words Yamaha and Tyros.
I made the same error on the Yamaha forums in reversed form and will never do that again. That line was about quality of the "SOUL" style as example of a good style.

Peace and cheers Johan

[paulmpianist]

I'm impressed with Johan's experience with styles. When I had a PA80, I thought they were all great styles. But like sometimes when I say.."great jazz!" its always followed by.. "too bad I hate jazz!"
On any keyboard there are some really cool styles. If I wanted to work that hard weeding the garden there would be 25% of the styles left when I got done. Its like all the junk you can't throw away because "you might need it someday."
If you're having a problem with a bump in a style, just tweek it, re-record it, whatever, but there's been enough collaboration on this thread to produce a couple of really cool new styles and I don't think the topic got resolved.
These are really cool keyboards. Most problems can be solved by working hard.
Sing. that'll fix a bad style sometimes. If they tell you to stop, just sing when there's nobody around.

my two bits.


I've been hired to come and perform before.. with the "just NO singing please." whatever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI3_ykb-HtQ

[montatore]

I don't have noticed the problem you mentioned.
Can you give examples (names) of the styles it concerns?

I have programmed my keyboard so, that when I use fill-in 1, the style variation goes up 1 step.
When I push fill-in 2, the style variation goes down 1 step.
When I push break, style variation goes back to style variation 1 (no matter in what style variation I was).
This helps me a lot with my style playing.

I had to practice a while before my use of the fill-ins went smoothly.
You have to pick the right moment to push the button.

I just saw this old post again....since then I have resold the PA500, I wasn't impressed by the average sounds, now I have a PA300 and I think it's a notable improvement.

As regard the problem I was having about the volume 'bump' in fills, I think you are right, it's because you have to be really exact when you are pressing the button.

When I had my Tyros 2 (which I don't have anymore either) I don't remember having to be exact....as long as I pressed the button before the start of the next bar, it would always sound good. Maybe the Korg fills have more 'resolution' and need more exactness. I think Fransman may be right.

I think that what happens is that in a fill there IS a slight increase in volume, and if you think about it, it makes sense. It's like an orchestra 'crescendo' but in miniature. So if it starts in the wrong place, it will sound wrong.

I also have noticed the same 'volume bump' fill problem in the software 1 Man Band by Jos Maas, which I am not using anyways because frankly I never liked computers for music. I prefer a real instrument.

Again I don't remember having this problem on the Tyros 2, but at the time I was using the arranger only to improvise sketches for ideas, whereas now I have been using the Korg (both the pa500 I had, and the pa300 I have now) extensively for studio work.

The moral of the story is: if I am really exact with the button pressing, the fills do sound good! So I think Fransman is right.

PS. and yes I really don't believe either that Korg styles are hastily put together. Why would a company like Korg, making a new product, do that? On the contrary, I am very impressed at the styles in my new PA300. I have been spending many hours as soon as I got it, and been creating many worthwhile ideas in but a couple of days. With computers it NEVER happens, and I have killer sound libraries, etc.

The PA300 was worth every one of my hard earned cents. The features are truly workstation-like and the sounds are greatly improved over the PA500.

[siebenhirter]

The moral of the story is: if I am really exact with the button pressing, the fills do sound good!

I think you never have heard or read about "Cue area" - also with Yamaha-Keyboards you never could hear about them, because CueMode for style elements is a feature of Korgs styleplayer.

If one use Fill-In with CueMode "Next measure, first measure" the next style element enters at the beginning of the next measure and begins from the first measure - that also is default for Yamaha.
If one use Fill-In with CueMode "Immediate, current measure" the next style element enters immediately, and begins from the current measure.
If one use Fill-In with CueMode "Immediate, first measure" the style Element enters immediately, and begins
from the first measure.

So the parameter "CueMode" lets you decide how the current Style Element will enter after it has been selected.
There is no difference between Pa300 and Pa500 using CueArea - look page 202 of usermanual Pa300.

The moral of the story is not "if I am really exact with the button pressing, the fills do sound good" but it is: fills sound as you decide individual, using cue mode to be triggered.

Using "Next measure first measure" it does not depend if you are really exact with button pressing!