Kronos "outputs" quality

[Ottawa58]

First, let me say that I'm nowhere near being able to comment about the sound quality of the Kronos.

However, recently I purchased some high end headphones, and needed a DAC/Amp to power them from my Mac. I did lots of research. This led to me loading Fidelia on my Mac to use instead of iTunes - with high definition audio -- FLAC files. Many people claim that they can tell the difference between regular audio, and high def FLAC. Could I? With a good DAC?

The answer is that I can sometimes. But there are so many variables - speaker and headphone quality, volume, room dynamics, quality of cables used, and personally, I believe even how tired I am when I'm listening. Someone else listening right beside me would have a different range of hearing, and might perceive differences that I don't.

My point is that perceived sound quality has many variables. In the end it just boils down to personal taste. If you like the sound from your laptop in a certain room over the Kronos, that is cool! One size doesn't fit everyone.

[danatkorg]

A fine musician colleague of mine who has and plays Nords, Hammonds (keyboards), and Rolands plus has a very very high class recording studio with some of the most expensive gear I have seen and has years of experience with playing, recording and sound.

Well, he was interested to hear my Kronos (had not heard one before) so I took it to his studio and he hooked it up (audio-wise).
He loved the multiple Kronos engines and the whole concept of KARMA plus the quality of samples/multi-samples etc..etc.. BUT said that the Kronos was completely let down by its extremely shoddy and poor quality digital-to-audio at output - I personally could not "hear" it but do not have that level of experience in that area.

Several responses:

1. Um, no.
2. OASYS used the same D/A.
3. The D/A uses pretty top-shelf parts (Burr Brown PCM 1793).
4. Not sure what he thinks he's hearing. I imagine he may be a good keyboard player, but since he can tolerate the sound of the red keyboards (which in many ways, including technical ones, is simply not in the same league), his comment seems rather suspect to me.

Sorry to be blunt.

[karmathanever]

This is great feedback - seriously, thanks guys.

Dumb question, but not fully obvious from the post, did you ask your friend to explain the difference that he heard, such that perhaps you could have heard it as well?

Actually a very sensible question - he did explain what he was hearing (need to re-ask him) but I could not hear an issue at all - his reaction to the Kronos was so immediate and instant which also prompted me to post this.
The only reason I posted this is because I was keen to get others' thoughts/experiences/feedback on this in case MY Kronos did have a problem.
I'm visiting my colleague again in a couple of weeks and will take my Kronos again and get some detailed explanation from him - his summary comment was that he believed that the D/A was possibly a cheap component but Dan has certainly confirmed that it's not.

P.S. Dan
Please don't apologise, love the "blunt" and thanks for the info.

Cheers

Pete

[80salife]

4. Not sure what he thinks he's hearing. I imagine he may be a good keyboard player, but since he can tolerate the sound of the red keyboards (which in many ways, including technical ones, is simply not in the same league), his comment seems rather suspect to me.

Sorry to be blunt.

Ouch, that hurts... Do you mean livesound or studiosound?

I never owned a "red one" but honestly, in the time before KRONOS I wished in Korg instruments were such a good Piano sound!!!

I think it is really difficult to put the good sound into practice

[SanderXpander]

I had a Stage Classic rev C which admittedly doesn't have the most modern bells and whistles but I could DEFINITELY not pit that against something like Ivory VST in the studio, whereas with the Kronos I can. For live it was alright, especially in mellower bands (jazzy stuff and duos and such). A lot of that has to do with the quality of the sample base, it's really hard to tell the quality of the DAC with so many variables, for instance the Nord doesn't even have digital outs. From my extensive experience with both boards I definitely trust the K more though. It sounds more hifi to me. I am by no means a technical pro at this but I play and produce professionally and have a reasonably high quality monitoring setup (DynAudio BM5As and several high end cans). Unless he was accidentally running in mono, or has some other problem with his monitoring, your friend is mistaken.

EDIT:
By the way, many Korg factory presets are pretty hyped in the EQ department. A bit less with the newer presets but still, I wonder if this may have affected his opinion?

[karmathanever]

A bit less with the newer presets but still, I wonder if this may have affected his opinion?

Will check that hen I next see him.

[BSV73]

Hi all

Firstly this is NOT a whinge from ME at all but I would genuinely love to hear your comments.
Also I have NOT posted this to irritate anyone.

Background first:-
A fine musician colleague of mine who has and plays Nords, Hammonds (keyboards), and Rolands plus has a very very high class recording studio with some of the most expensive gear I have seen and has years of experience with playing, recording and sound.

Well, he was interested to hear my Kronos (had not heard one before) so I took it to his studio and he hooked it up (audio-wise).
He loved the multiple Kronos engines and the whole concept of KARMA plus the quality of samples/multi-samples etc..etc.. BUT said that the Kronos was completely let down by its extremely shoddy and poor quality digital-to-audio at output - I personally could not "hear" it but do not have that level of experience in that area.

OK, again, I have no problem with my Kronos at all but I was shocked by his comment and very strong views.

Any thoughts/comment?
Does anyone relate to this?
Would Kronos X and Kronos 2 have any different hardware relating to this?

I'm not paranoid, just seriously interested.

Thanks

Pete

Pete,
I've thought the same thing for a while, but have never been able to quite put my finger on it.

My ears don't lie, there is def something up with the digital to analog conversion.

I've never been able to find this youtube video again, but I once came across a vid of a guy connecting an audio output direct to his Yamaha DP (it was a P-80 or something like that) motherboard, or some kind of chip inside the board to bypass the analog audio conversion. He claimed that all keyboards have this issue. The problem is i've never been able to find that video again!

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hlight=qsc

[SanderXpander]

If the "issue" is DA conversion then yeah, obviously all boards have it. In order to get the sound to the speakers (and your ears) it still has to go through some kind of DA converter, so I don't know what the guy used in the movie but it would have to be pretty spectacular to be significantly better than what's in the Kronos. It was perhaps a good improvement over his P80 though.

Seriously, whether or not you like the sound is a different matter (some people prefer the original 12 bit DX7 because it has more "grit" or whatever) but accurate conversion can be measured and I dare anyone to demonstrate in a test that the Kronos performs worse than its competitors. My guess is many people have something they simply don't like about the sound and simply claim "DA" because it's some mystical component that affects the sound of the whole board.

[timbukktwo]

Good point (last sentence)^

[BSV73]

I don't know what the technical side is behind it, all I know is that my ears tell me when outputting the kronos audio via usb/daw and a separate audio interface that the audio quality is improved.

I'm in no way saying that the kronos isn't a fine board.

[danatkorg]

I don't know what the technical side is behind it, all I know is that my ears tell me when outputting the kronos audio via usb/daw and a separate audio interface that the audio quality is improved.

I'm in no way saying that the kronos isn't a fine board.

I appreciate that you're not intending to criticize.

How are you listening to the KRONOS analog signal? What is your DAW's interface? I would check cables, mixer, A/D on your interface, etc. "Improved" can mean many things - such as higher volume, and even higher distortion. It seems very unlikely to me that whatever you're hearing indicates a problem with the KRONOS D/A.

[pedro5]

Exactly,Dan.
Darn it.....
You beat me to it.....

[BSV73]

Dan/ Pedro and anyone else interested, Here is the set-up I'm talking about:

Set-up 1. Kronos -> L mono 1/4 inch cable direct into Qsc K8

vs

Set-up 2. Kronos -> usb into macbook pro -> audio into logic pro x with no effects on either (I've also tested this with ableton live with the same result) -> NI audio kontrol 1 -> mono 1/4 cable into Qsc K8

To my ears set up 2 has a noticeably more detailed sound.

[BSV73]

The same thing when I try to rout vsts through the kronos, eg. Scarbee, Purgatory creek Mkv, galaxy vintage D.

The audio kontrol 1 sounds better than the kronos analog outs.

[danatkorg]

Dan/ Pedro and anyone else interested, Here is the set-up I'm talking about:

Set-up 1. Kronos -> L mono 1/4 inch cable direct into Qsc K8

vs

Set-up 2. Kronos -> usb into macbook pro -> audio into logic pro x with no effects on either (I've also tested this with ableton live with the same result) -> NI audio kontrol 1 -> mono 1/4 cable into Qsc K8

To my ears set up 2 has a noticeably more detailed sound.

Just to confirm: in Setup 1, you're using a single 1/4" cable from the L/Mono output to your QSC powered speaker, with nothing connected to the R output. Yes?