Kronos... why does it sound so thin compared to PC3K?

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:51 am

EvilDragon wrote: Read about "companding" used on Rolands back in the day. Eric Persing has a say or two about that.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5446278-post128.html

Keywords here are "special sample interpolation/playback algorithm" and "emphasis/deemphasis".

Companding = compression/expansion. Completely different from emphasis/de-emphasis, and in turn separate from interpolation (which, as I have mentioned before, can vary greatly in its fidelity).

EvilDragon wrote:And this (not companding per se) is exactly what's happening even today between Korg/Kurzweil/Yamaha/Roland, etc. They simply have different methods of doing the same thing. To me:

Korg - hyped up highs
Kurzweil - most neutral sounding
Yamaha - most sterile sounding
Roland - most compressed sounding (modern Roland doesn't hold a candle to vintage Roland, even in digital domain)

And yes, that was all with the same sample going into them.

Pretty easy to verify. I can't speak for the other machines, but I am quite certain that you'll find that the KRONOS is linear.

There would be two tests, of course: one for un-interpolated playback (the system must be running at the same sample rate as the sample was recorded, and playback should be at the root pitch with no detuning), and another for interpolated playback (same as before, but transposed up by say, an octave and a tritone).

For the latter test, I am not aware of any current realtime system with better interpolation than the KRONOS, but I am aware of many which are noticeably worse.

alanjpearson · Post by **alanjpearson** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:24 am

EvilDragon wrote:
alanjpearson wrote:Why would these manufacturers WANT to affect the sound from a sample?
They WANT the sample to sound exactly as it did when you created it.
Read about "companding" used on Rolands back in the day. Eric Persing has a say or two about that.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5446278-post128.html

Keywords here are "special sample interpolation/playback algorithm" and "emphasis/deemphasis".

Sure, we're in different times now, no need for companding because memory is a lot cheaper, but this is how things can vastly affect the sound between different samplers. And this (not companding per se) is exactly what's happening even today between Korg/Kurzweil/Yamaha/Roland, etc. They simply have different methods of doing the same thing. To me:

Korg - hyped up highs
Kurzweil - most neutral sounding
Yamaha - most sterile sounding
Roland - most compressed sounding (modern Roland doesn't hold a candle to vintage Roland, even in digital domain)

And yes, that was all with the same sample going into them.

Not my experience with all the synths I've had and still have.
I'll happily stand back and let you argue with Dan.........you seem to think you can trade knowledge at his level..........

R
Alan

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:35 am

danatkorg wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:I agree with the cables part - that is snakeoil.

But I simply disagree with output stages being the same on all synths, because that is not true. There is something Korg is doing to "hype up" the high end on their machines.
For some sounds, sure - it's called EQ. It's a matter of the taste of the sound designers for each individual sound, and is fully editable by the user as well.

That was with EQ and all FX turned off when importing my own samples on an M3. It simply did not sound the same as when importing my own samples on my PC3K with EVERYTHING shut off (DSP, effects, master effects). And I really tried to match the output volumes and internal (synthesis) gain stages as close as possible.

danatkorg wrote:Certainly a matter of taste, but of course at least the early K2k series did *not* have a neutral output stage; as noted by Keyboard Magazine lab tests at the time, they had a slightly early high-end rolloff for a 44.1kHz system, around 18kHz if memory serves. Whether or not that rolloff is easily audible to most listeners is a separate question, of course. I would assume that their more recent instruments have a more standard frequency response.

Yes, I was not talking about K2x series in this regard at all.

SoulBe · Post by **SoulBe** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:16 pm

Hi,

interesting discussion but for me it is also a matter of personal preference.
I can only compare the older models Oasys, K 2600 and Motif Es 8 which I play and the "sound" of those.
Not speaking from programming from the scratch but tweaked presets the Oasys sounds more pristine, Kurzweil more organic and Yamaha more sterile to me. I owned Roland keyboards but I didn´t like their "sound", which was a litte too much "plastic" to me.
So mixing the Oasys, Kurzweil and Yamaha makes the best sound

best regards
SoulBe

tyvek · Post by **tyvek** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:21 pm

I have a pc3 and it compares to the kronos x I have also. Don't see any thin sound. The kronos has you build from a clean sample where as the PC3 the samples are colored right off the bat.
So there is more work on the kronos but at the same time more abilities to do things to the sound. The pc3 the samples cannot be altered if color is already part of them.

They both have their merits clearly from the depths of V.A.S.T that cannot be ignored as to the power. The korg with its equal O/S on another level.

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:42 pm

Alan, I have a bass player friend who has a couplke of $125 cables. Hr swears he can hear a difference but I think the only sound he hears is his wallet asking, "WTF?".

glenny g · Post by **glenny g** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:46 am

Gotta say, for bread and butter live stuff the Korg brass and strings are pretty poor. I'd much rather use my Roland XP50 for ROMpler sounds. But the Korg EXi's are good. In the end I made a good brass patch that combines samples of my Roland brass and the Korg brass. Still have to sort out the strings. I will never understand why they have that stupid attack on them.
The woodwinds etc aren't great either but I rarely need those on a gig.

I think Korg would be well served by completely updating their ROM samples. In almost every category, Roland ROMs are better. Don't be hating - it's just my opinion based on 30 years of professional touring.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:50 am

Which really shows how much "taste" factors in the equation. While I can easily see/hear how the brass and strings could be improved on the Kronos, I would never, ever, replace them with something as terrible as the XP50 brass.

alanjpearson · Post by **alanjpearson** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:51 am

jeremykeys wrote:Alan, I have a bass player friend who has a couplke of $125 cables. Hr swears he can hear a difference but I think the only sound he hears is his wallet asking, "WTF?".

LOL

You also find people paying megabucks for esoteric amplifiers and speakers, only to plug in their MP3 players and SWEAR how great it sounds!
For everything there is a law of diminishing returns............

R
Alan

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm

SanderXpander wrote:Which really shows how much "taste" factors in the equation. While I can easily see/hear how the brass and strings could be improved on the Kronos, I would never, ever, replace them with something as terrible as the XP50 brass.

+1 and same for XP50 strings

Nevertheless I think it is true that many(!) HD-1 samples and presets do in fact sound quite oudated and are not on a par with the rest of the Kronos' sonic quality, and they could well use an update/replacement for sure.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:29 pm

jimknopf wrote: I think it is true that many(!) HD-1 samples and presets do in fact sound quite oudated and are not on a par with the rest of the Kronos' sonic quality, and they could well use an update/replacement for sure.

Aren't most of the HD-1 sounds essentially the OASYS sounds, which in turn were mined for the M3 and M50 as well?

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:03 pm

Yes, many are, and among keyboarders I know, they were already discussed back then (for not being as superior to other workstation sounds as expected from the Oasys).
Now we are some years later, and many definitely need an update IMHO to be of similar quality as sounds from the other engines, or like more recent sample libraries or user samples. Korg is not alone here. All the well known workstations recycle much too much outdated stuff which simply doesn't sound great by nowadays standards.

The Kronos sounds wonderful, and the HD-1 engine is able to deliver updated stuff very well.

BobTheDog · Post by **BobTheDog** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:11 am

jeremykeys wrote:Alan, I have a bass player friend who has a couplke of $125 cables. Hr swears he can hear a difference but I think the only sound he hears is his wallet asking, "WTF?".

What gets me are the "Audiophile" digital cables like this one: http://www.analogueseduction.net/audioq ... cable.html

I just wonder how stupid someone has to be to buy one of these!

Ojustaboo · Post by **Ojustaboo** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:59 am

The cynic in me thinks that if the Kronos had decent sounding strings, people would be less likely to pay $249 for their EXs 11 Legendary Strings

Ojustaboo · Post by **Ojustaboo** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:03 am

BobTheDog wrote:
jeremykeys wrote:Alan, I have a bass player friend who has a couplke of $125 cables. Hr swears he can hear a difference but I think the only sound he hears is his wallet asking, "WTF?".
What gets me are the "Audiophile" digital cables like this one: http://www.analogueseduction.net/audioq ... cable.html

I just wonder how stupid someone has to be to buy one of these!

It will be the same people that believe paying more than £2 for a 1 meter/yard HDMI cable will give them a better TV picture.