Kaossilator Pro clock does not work. End of...

[Dixie237]

Hi all,
I am looking for someone here to correct my setup because my findings are not good re Kaossilator Pro Sync. After 4 mins the Pro is out of sync with EMX-1 with audible "de-dunk" on Pro 4/4 kick vs EMX-1 4/4 kick

My Rig for this test
Kaossilator Pro
KP3 (still in sealed box and probably for sale if I cannot reslove)
EMX-1 SD
behringer DDM4000
ACME-4 midi clock.
..no computer..all standalone.

The Acme-4 running standalone is the most accurate jitter free midi clock (along with innerclock systems stuff) generator that is available. Totally rock solid.

So basically I have the ACME-4 driving midi clock to EMX-1 and Pro.
Both Pro and EMX are set to EXT midi (I tried combinations of auto/ext also)

With a 4/4 kick at 120bpm on both EMX and Pro synced perfectly at the start, this is what happens...

The EMX is rock solid to to ACME-4. I left it there for over an hour (checking regularly) and it was bang on.

The pro drifts after about 4 minutes with audible results, I reckon 50-100ms!!!!

This is totally unusable!!!!

It seems as though the Pro takes its "tempo reading average" and then shuts its "ears" to the clock signal.
I use the Acme-4 in my studio to sync other kit 808-x0x-EMX and its perfect. I can leave all three for hours...perfect sync

Korg can do this for the EMX, but not the Pro. I know the EMX does stop/start and the Pro doesnt. I undestand how this works. The EMX responds perfectly. The Acme can do half and double tempo changes, and they are sweeeeet on the EMX. Its as good as gold. But the Pro just drifts...

Obviously within itself the Pro stays in sync....but that makes this unit only any good if you are using it on its own, or for super short tracks, loops that a dj captures and triggers a couple of times..or for non beat dependant drones etc.

I am reticent to open the KP3 because my gut tells me itll be the same, itll drift from the EMX and the Pro, and the Pro will drift from the others...its a mess

Community, am I missing something here? The Pro and the KP3 are sold on their "syncing" but it just doesn't work. Did I buy the wrong kit?

[thehighesttree]

I don't own a KPro, but I've read of people having difficulty keeping recorded samples in sync. Is it just the sample pads that seem to be trailing or even LFOs and other beat-matched stuff? Sounds like a pretty frustrating situation, it may be necessary to reconfigure your arrangement so that you're using the gear in a way that will stay stable among itself.

[Dixie237]

Hi thanks for reply.
The Pro doesnt have LFO effects etc. it has patches that have lfos on them, so didnt check lfo drift.
Its anything thats recorded. I understand that all four banks will always be in sync as they are all running together within the unit. Its user skil to stop start these in time with eavh other.

I decided to try the KP3.

1/ I took the acme out of the loop and tried pro int to emx ext. still drifting after 5 mins
2/ I tried pro int to kp3 ext. sampled a loop from the pro into kp3. Still drift, took about 5-6 mins.
3/ I added the acme back in. 3 feeds out to emx, pro, kp3. Emx stays solid pro and k3 drift.....pro is the worse one though KP3 took a minute or to longer to drift out

Just wanna do some 30min jamming and noodling.....

Perhaps i need an octatrack

Anyone experienced my issues ?

Cheers
D

[Bowmoney]

why not use the kpro as the main clock then? that's what I ended up doing...if it is sending out the signal,. and everything else receives it, you should be fine.

[Dixie237]

2/ I tried pro int to kp3 ext. sampled a loop from the pro into kp3. Still drift, took about 5-6 mins

Tried that. Whichever way I clock both Pro and Kp3 drift from each other, and the EMX-1 .The Pro is worse that the KP3. Pro has drifted noticably after 4 mins. The KP3 drifts noticably after 5-6 mins.

The other factor is that I have the Acme-4 which i want to use because of its ability to halve, double and swing clock. This is such a powerful performance tool, its to good not to use.

Dont get me wrong, if i found a solution taking the acme out of the setup using pro or Kp3 as master i would. It just seems like they jitter beyond usability.

I wonder how korg can get it right with the electribes and (apparently) not with the kaosspads.

[Dixie237]

Ok so I sent an email to Korg, asking for there advice / opinion.

Id still be interested in anyone setting up as I have to see what happens.

Some thoughts. Both the Pro and the KP3 drift consistently in the same direction (as I write this away from the studio I cant remeber whether its fast or slow), its always the same.

I think this is what happens under the hood with the KP3 and PRO.

There is a difference in the resolution of the audio for any given BPM vs the resolution of the Mid clock signal.

The clock resolution over 4 bars is 384 clicks. At 120BPM thats 20ms per click.

If the Pro and KP3 are unable to "monitor" clock once they are fixed and running (they receive no start stop), it could make sense that their OS's average out any timing issues, ie clock resolution vs audio resolution, resulting in drift.

Just a guess....Im no coder...the above may make no sense

[Dixie237]

why not use the kpro as the main clock then? that's what I ended up doing...if it is sending out the signal,. and everything else receives it, you should be fine.

Hey Bowmoney. Can I ask, if you were using a pro as a master, what was in your setup as slave? How were the 2 (or more?) units running together over more than 5 mins for you?

My theory is that even though Pro and KP3 kick out clock, (they will have jitter) they are physically unable to exactly internally match the looping audio time for the set bar length, vs the amount of clock clicks that are sent out, even though they are very very close (96 for 1 bar,192 for 2 bars,384 for 4 bars)

So in my experience at 120 bpm and after 5 minutes the clock has kicked out 115,200 clicks, the 4 bar loop has rotated 75 times resulting in 100ms drift. so im getting a 1.333ms / per 4 bar drift..

...no idea where these maths are going


all this because the clock "appears not to" "latch"... again im no coder!!!

..anyways...am I making sense to anyone?

[neotechtonics]

1. Don't use any MIDI sync with the Kpro
2. learn to beatmatch (nudge the tempo on the Kpro to keep it in sync if need be)

I've had my Kpro loops stay in sync with my EMX (or damn near in perfect sync) for longer than 10 minutes when not using any MIDI sync... but then again there are always slight differences in internal clock speeds.

or just clear your loops before the sync drift becomes bad. I don't see why anyone would want to loop something for longer than 4 minutes (unless its a backing beat and you're freestyling some rhymes over it) if you're jamming it will help you keep things fresh.. instead of getting caught 'in a loop' and noodling with the same sounds for too long.. something you have to be constantly aware of if you play live.

[Dixie237]

1. Don't use any MIDI sync with the Kpro
2. learn to beatmatch (nudge the tempo on the Kpro to keep it in sync if need be)

I've had my Kpro loops stay in sync with my EMX (or damn near in perfect sync) for longer than 10 minutes when not using any MIDI sync... but then again there are always slight differences in internal clock speeds.

or just clear your loops before the sync drift becomes bad. I don't see why anyone would want to loop something for longer than 4 minutes (unless its a backing beat and you're freestyling some rhymes over it) if you're jamming it will help you keep things fresh.. instead of getting caught 'in a loop' and noodling with the same sounds for too long.. something you have to be constantly aware of if you play live.

Hi there,
thanks for taking the time for replying.
Syncing is the goal here. Using Midi sync is what I am discussing.

I know how to beatmatch, I've had SL1210's for 20 years thanks. I dont want to be constantly pushing and pulling whilst concentrating on filters recording loops and riffs arranging etc.

"damn near perfect" sync isnt sync.

As I said in my previous posts I can sync 808, x0x, and EMX perfectly...for hours..but the PRO and KP3 arent cutting it. I could easily loose them and replace them with something that works (for me....ie sync until press stop) Octatrack / monomachine.

Dont get me wrong, I love the playability / sounds / uniqueness of the units....just wish the sync was ..er...syncing.

I dont want to "clear my loops" If Ive recorded a bassline on the Pro that I'm vibing on.. and it becomes the backbone of a track, with EMX drums...and ive magaged to record it "in time"...im not going to dump it because the equipment wont stay in time. I want to let it run..filter it through the DDM4000 etc.

Thanks again for your reply. These are "workarounds" though.

Nowhere in the manual does it say "BEWARE. You may have to pull and push your loops timing or re-record due to the product being unable to sync for more that 5 mins."

Im not a Korg hater. I love the EMX-1 and it sync is peeeerfect.

Why would anyone want to loop for more that 4 mins?...Have you never heard "Rez" by underworld...

[neotechtonics]

Then you should probably look at getting a different looper. The kaoss pads are attrocious at holding a loop in sync.

Quick question: how is the DDM4000 with midi? In terms of syncing its effects from external midi clock with changing tempo? And also can you pre-map it then use it to control other gear? I got the NOX606 instead.

[Dixie237]

instead of getting caught 'in a loop' and noodling with the same sounds for too long.. something you have to be constantly aware of if you play live.

BTW what I do, is simply use the vol controls on the banks to "drop them in and out". I dont play all the sounds "all the time".

When I bring the volume of a loop up, if I havent used it for a min or two (or more)...id like it to have the same timing (with respect to the EMX for example) as when I "muted" it with the volume.

[Dixie237]

Then you should probably look at getting a different looper. The kaoss pads are attrocious at holding a loop in sync.

Quick question: how is the DDM4000 with midi? In terms of syncing its effects from external midi clock with changing tempo? And also can you pre-map it then use it to control other gear? I got the NOX606 instead.

Well sadly its looking that way!!

I was aware of issues, but didnt think it would be this bad.
Generally its the quality of the clock being sent in. Even using the Acme-4 makes no difference.

Shame because these would be killer.

I dont generally use the midi on the DDM4000. If im gonna use time based effects, ill just tap tempo in. Its fine for short bursts.

I wish it could slave to midi clock...it doesnt. Clock out only!
Cheers
D

[Bowmoney]

not sure...i just know i use the kpro as the lead clock, then use a 4 way split midi cable to plug 4 devices into that clock signal...I usually use kpro then out into en em-1, mc 303, sh-32, and a keyboard.

[Dixie237]

Hi bowmoney,
Ok, so pretty similar setup using units that receive clock stop / start.

What happens when you set up a single kick running on the mc-303 and or the SH-32, have that / those running, then record a basic drum loop on the Pro. If you get the Pro loop super tight to the Rolands then nip off and make a cuppa, hows the timing? I would expect the Roland to stay exactly in time but suspect the Pro audio to have drifted (if your Pro is behaving as mine)

Thanks for reply

[Bowmoney]

I do not have my gear set up currently, but I've done some really long jams and never really hit much of an issue as long as the kpro is the master and I use the arp for the original recording to lock it to the beat exactly.

the kpro could never get out this way, since it is the master, and the mc303 and others would never trigger a beat until it gets the clock signal from the kpro.

i guess i dont have any good videos to demo for you...here's 6 minutes of the em-1 and kpro running together... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aih6AMS8 ... plpp_video