Almost all CX3 Factory Sounds overdriven internally!

[JPWC]

I disagree with this thread, and I am not calling anybody stupid.

The slight distortion in the organ sound is highly desireable to me, Lets the sound cut through the mix, and sounds intentional. I hear a similar distortion on some of the electric pianos.

Reminds me of the days when we used to play extremely loud.

Why not adjust the parameters of concern and save it, too your liking, now that's not stupid for anybody.

[jerrythek]

You will hear these bad scratching noises of digital overdrive especially while playing chords with CX3 rotary sounds in the upper octaves...

Ah, I missed this the first time around reading your post - thanks for the clarification.

Yes, I know this phenomenon... if you leave out the E in your chord, for example, it will go away. I cannot adequately explain it, but I had asked about it years ago and got an explanation regarding sideband harmonics from the sine waves, or something like that. It's different than internal clipping, but I am not qualified to discuss the science accurately. I long ago got used to it and chose not to do the types of edits you are doing, as they cause the sound to lose power/energy/b***s...

But you're not crazy, just sensitive to it. I remember McHale contacting Prod. Support regarding the same thing. I can't help further, sorry.

Jerry

[MRedZac]

I disagree with this thread, and I am not calling anybody stupid.

The slight distortion in the organ sound is highly desireable to me, Lets the sound cut through the mix, and sounds intentional. I hear a similar distortion on some of the electric pianos.

Reminds me of the days when we used to play extremely loud.

Why not adjust the parameters of concern and save it, too your liking, now that's not stupid for anybody.

JPWC, it is not what you call it a "slight distortion" - If you listen to this through a 10kW PA, it sound´s like the loudspeakers blow away... It is extremely discomforting and not compareable with what you mean by "slight distortion"

But ok, everybody has his own opinion...

[MRedZac]

You will hear these bad scratching noises of digital overdrive especially while playing chords with CX3 rotary sounds in the upper octaves...

Ah, I missed this the first time around reading your post - thanks for the clarification.

Yes, I know this phenomenon... if you leave out the E in your chord, for example, it will go away. I cannot adequately explain it, but I had asked about it years ago and got an explanation regarding sideband harmonics from the sine waves, or something like that. It's different than internal clipping, but I am not qualified to discuss the science accurately. I long ago got used to it and chose not to do the types of edits you are doing, as they cause the sound to lose power/energy/b***s...

But you're not crazy, just sensitive to it. I remember McHale contacting Prod. Support regarding the same thing. I can't help further, sorry.

Jerry

Ah, yes, I see what you mean, Jerry.

I thought about it already as well... But if you just lower the Main Output - Volume of CX3, it´s gone... So my question would be, if these scratching sounds are side effects of sine waves, they should be there as well, if I lower the Main Output volume, no ? (Just like it is with NI B4 emulation...) - That´s why I´m not convinced about this theory...

I really think more, that the additional tones raise the loudness of sound and at a certain point, this is too much for Kronos soundcard...

Maybe somebody from Korg Stuff wants to take part in the discussion ?

[X-Trade]

You are saying "Tube Amp Gain" - meaning the MFX/TFX?

Have you tried disabling all IFX/MFX/TFX, and not changing any other output or gain stage volumes?

Jerry

Jerry,

here comes the proof of what I´m telling you:

To make clear what I did now for recording it to a mp3 file:

- I choose a factory preset from the preload content. In this case 017 Jazzy Organ 2 SW 1, which I don´t change at all.
- I connect the Kronos by optical SPDIF to the input of my DAW
- I open Cubase 6, leave the input at 0db (but it is the same if I lower the input volume) and if I play on the Kronos, even if the problem appears, I have absolutely no clipping on the DAW input, means that definetly, the problem is coming like that from Kronos to DAW.
- I play on the highest octave (I have Kronos 61) c-e-g and there´s nothing. I add above h-c, so that the complete cord is c-e-g-h-c and it´s scratching.
- Now, I set the Amp Gain in EXi1->Amp/VC/RotarySP to 00, just to exclude the possibility that it is comming from the amp gain, but the problem persists.

It is exactly the same phenomen if I connect the headphones, or if I connect the Kronos analog to a PA. So, the digitally scratching sound is produced definetly in CX3-Engine, before it reaches Kronos Outputs.
You can only get rid of it, if you lower the Main Output - Volume of this preset, which you can set on the bottom of the page, showed in the picture below. But by default it is set to 55 in preload content for this preset, and it is for almost all the presets, that the Main Output - Volume is set to high for the capabilities of Kronos internal soundcard.
If you just lower the Main Output to 30, the scratching sound is gone - but I don´t want to edit each single factory preset...

Listen to the recorded MP3 here:
http://mediacoustics.eu/clippingdemo.mp3
You hear the scratching coming to the sound, if I play h,c above in addition ? - Concentrate on the rotor...


I suppose it is not meant by design that the unchanged sounds of factory content digitally clip internally, no matter what is being played on the keyboard, is it ?

Cheers
Garfield

That sounds fairly obvious. And not at all desirable. (Jerry, not sure, looks like you missed the audio file example here?)
Have you checked that this is perhaps only related to the digital output?

[MRedZac]

You are saying "Tube Amp Gain" - meaning the MFX/TFX?

Have you tried disabling all IFX/MFX/TFX, and not changing any other output or gain stage volumes?

Jerry

Jerry,

here comes the proof of what I´m telling you:

To make clear what I did now for recording it to a mp3 file:

- I choose a factory preset from the preload content. In this case 017 Jazzy Organ 2 SW 1, which I don´t change at all.
- I connect the Kronos by optical SPDIF to the input of my DAW
- I open Cubase 6, leave the input at 0db (but it is the same if I lower the input volume) and if I play on the Kronos, even if the problem appears, I have absolutely no clipping on the DAW input, means that definetly, the problem is coming like that from Kronos to DAW.
- I play on the highest octave (I have Kronos 61) c-e-g and there´s nothing. I add above h-c, so that the complete cord is c-e-g-h-c and it´s scratching.
- Now, I set the Amp Gain in EXi1->Amp/VC/RotarySP to 00, just to exclude the possibility that it is comming from the amp gain, but the problem persists.

It is exactly the same phenomen if I connect the headphones, or if I connect the Kronos analog to a PA. So, the digitally scratching sound is produced definetly in CX3-Engine, before it reaches Kronos Outputs.
You can only get rid of it, if you lower the Main Output - Volume of this preset, which you can set on the bottom of the page, showed in the picture below. But by default it is set to 55 in preload content for this preset, and it is for almost all the presets, that the Main Output - Volume is set to high for the capabilities of Kronos internal soundcard.
If you just lower the Main Output to 30, the scratching sound is gone - but I don´t want to edit each single factory preset...

Listen to the recorded MP3 here:
http://mediacoustics.eu/clippingdemo.mp3
You hear the scratching coming to the sound, if I play h,c above in addition ? - Concentrate on the rotor...


I suppose it is not meant by design that the unchanged sounds of factory content digitally clip internally, no matter what is being played on the keyboard, is it ?

Cheers
Garfield

That sounds fairly obvious. And not at all desirable. (Jerry, not sure, looks like you missed the audio file example here?)
Have you checked that this is perhaps only related to the digital output?

Hi X-Trade,

already mentioned: I checked all the outputs, analog, digital, headphones... Everywhere the same...

Cheers
Garfield

[Andy Leary]

Garfield,

The particular example you are describing (017 Jazzy Organ) is actually clipping *after* the CX3 and CX3 effects. The sideband distortion explanation that Jerry gave is a real thing, but does not explain the clipping that you are talking about. Turning down the Main Output: Output Level parameter fixes it, and so does turning down EXi Volume (or, for that matter, the Trim for the Track EQ). There is also an EQ in IFX1 that has 8 dB gain at 1 kHz. Turn off the IFX and the clipping goes away.

It's more a case of aggressive gain scaling on the part of the programmer and not a problem with the algorithm. Voicing guys always want the programs to be HOT!

That being said, there may be other examples and other places in the CX3 where you may get some clipping. Since you have already done a bunch of CX3 presets, you know that we give you lots of parameters which you can use to try and avoid these kind of issues or dial it in the way you like. So, one of the other posters had the right idea. If it's a problem for you, adjust the level and save it. You don't have to do it for every preset, only the ones you want to use and that are causing you a problem.

Lastly, you suggest that the Main Output: Output Level parameter might be a little too "hot" for the rest of the system. The control is linear so the top half of the parameter (from 64 to 127) only represents 6 dB. And, it's nice to have some extra headroom in case you need to make a quiet program (like very few drawbars) much louder.

I'm going to check out your CX3 sounds! Keep 'em coming!

[jerrythek]

Thanks for coming to the rescue Andy - I was doing this all without the Kronos on/in front of me.


Jerry

P.S. I suspected FX/gainstage issues, but didn't look hard enough in that direction before assuming the sideband thing. Had I listened to the audio example I would have heard how much harsher/annoying the clipping was than what I was talking about.

[aron]

I remember hearing this and thinking it was weird that my rig was distorting! Thanks for the tip. It doesn't happen on all the programs, just certain ones.

I saw this great post on the PC3 forum, wonder if we can convert the Korg values to match these?

I believe the top rotor was 1.75 seconds ramp up and 1.25 seconds ramp down. The PC3's KB3B effect uses actual seconds for ramp up and ramp down, so you can plug in the 6.5, 8.0, 1.75 and 1.25 in the PARAM 2 & 3 pages. For the speeds themselves I believe the PC3 uses Hz cycles, so you have to convert the RPM to Hz, which if I recall is dividing by 60, so the speeds should convert as follows on the PC3:

Low Slow: 40 RPM or 0.67 Hz
Low Fast: 342 RPM or 5.7 Hz
Upper Slow: 48 RPM or 0.8 Hz
Upper Fast: 400 RPM or 6.67 Hz

I actually measured my slow speeds with a stop watch, adjusting the PC3 until I had 40/48 RPM's on each rotor in chorale. For the fast speed, I used the 8' drawbar on my B3/122 and the 8' drawbar on the KB3 of the PC3 until the fast speeds of each rotor sounded the same. I didn't trust the Hz settings on the PC3. I'm not sure exactly what the Hz settings actually ended up on the PC3, I just know that the ramp speeds and slow/fast are identical to my 122. This adds to the authenticity/realism. Also, because the 122 does have a delay before responding to your switch change, due to a DC offset signal at the leslie amp and controlling a DC coil relay, the only way I could simulate this was by tweaking the acceleration curve of the horn and low rotor setting in the KB3B effect so that the rampup isn't linear, it starts off slower then speeds up, sort of simulating that delay. I tweaked it till I got as close as I could get it, which is pretty close.

[MRedZac]

Garfield,

The particular example you are describing (017 Jazzy Organ) is actually clipping *after* the CX3 and CX3 effects. The sideband distortion explanation that Jerry gave is a real thing, but does not explain the clipping that you are talking about. Turning down the Main Output: Output Level parameter fixes it, and so does turning down EXi Volume (or, for that matter, the Trim for the Track EQ). There is also an EQ in IFX1 that has 8 dB gain at 1 kHz. Turn off the IFX and the clipping goes away.

It's more a case of aggressive gain scaling on the part of the programmer and not a problem with the algorithm. Voicing guys always want the programs to be HOT!

That being said, there may be other examples and other places in the CX3 where you may get some clipping. Since you have already done a bunch of CX3 presets, you know that we give you lots of parameters which you can use to try and avoid these kind of issues or dial it in the way you like. So, one of the other posters had the right idea. If it's a problem for you, adjust the level and save it. You don't have to do it for every preset, only the ones you want to use and that are causing you a problem.

Lastly, you suggest that the Main Output: Output Level parameter might be a little too "hot" for the rest of the system. The control is linear so the top half of the parameter (from 64 to 127) only represents 6 dB. And, it's nice to have some extra headroom in case you need to make a quiet program (like very few drawbars) much louder.

I'm going to check out your CX3 sounds! Keep 'em coming!

Thanks for your statement, basically saying the same what I say: The sound programmers made some sounds too loud (or, as you keep saying "too hot") for the internal Kronos soundcard. That´s it. And it does not matter, if the clipping is produced by CX3 or some IFX afterwards. Of course, you can always adjust the settings for each preset manually, but this is not the point - important is only to acknowledge, that there are some factory content sounds, which might clip. Not more, not less.

By the way: "...only represents 6dB" ---- +3dB is double loudness, so +6db is already 4 times as loud as +0dB - of course, this explains, why there is some clipping, considering, that somewhere between 40-50 is digmax...

Cheers
Garfield

[Oboemd]

I thought it was simply too much "amp gain" in most of the drawbar programs. Adjusting and saving has worked for me.

[danatkorg]

By the way: "...only represents 6dB" ---- +3dB is double loudness, so +6db is already 4 times as loud as +0dB - of course, this explains, why there is some clipping, considering, that somewhere between 40-50 is digmax...

Cheers
Garfield

Note that the doubling described above applies to *power* instead of amplitude - and *amplitude* is what causes clipping. An increase of 6dB quadruples the power, but only doubles the amplitude.

Aside from this, the main point is that it's important to understand whether volume controls are linear or logarithmic. The faders on mixers are generally calibrated in a log scale, so that 6dB would only be a small portion of the fader's throw. On a linear control, you have lots of resolution at the top end - but that also means that the upper half of the control (for instance, 64-127) only covers 6dB.

This means that when reducing volume via a linear control, it may appear that you have to "turn down" much more than you would with a log control. For instance, to go from 0dB to -12dB on my Mackie Control is about 20% of the fader's throw; to go from 0dB to -12dB on a linear control takes 75% of the total range (e.g. from 127 down to 32).

Hope this helps,

- Dan