How to go from amatuer keyboardist to Pro?

MonoxideC · Post by **MonoxideC** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:49 pm

I started playing keyboard in my band a few years ago out of necessity (I played bass, but our keyboardist moved away to join the military). I basically taught myself how to play, and tried to apply my limited existing music theory knowledge, and I've been able to get by.

But I've really wanted to try and take my playing to the next level lately (especially since I bought my AX-synth) so that I can play solos and improvise better, but I don't really know where to start.

Since I'm 100% self taught (as in, no formal piano training, period) I'm assuming that I have a lot to "un-learn". I don't know any of the proper techniques, and it really limits my ability to transition between different chords efficiently, and forget any kind of "runs" aside from the easy scales like C-M and A-m. My fingers are pretty agile, just not in the right ways I guess.

Does anyone have any recommendations on where I should start? There are a million resources on the web but nothing I've found that seems to fit what I'm trying to learn. Also, I don't have a lot of free time so I want to make sure that I'm not wasting any of it.

One-on-one lessons are an option, but I'm not really interested in learning classical piano/jazz/etc which is what it seems most people teach. I'm interested in mostly synthetic music, and the lead styles that tend to emulate "showy" guitar style playing.

Thanks for any advice!

cello · Post by **cello** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:07 pm

Have you thought about what it is you want to learn?

Improvisation is very different to playing technique for example.

FWIW - I view scales like the dictionary. The dictionary contains every book that has been written and every book that will be written.

Same relationship exists around scales. Scales contain every note ever written in songs and every song that is yet to be written.

So - for me - the secret is learning the relationships between the notes - like between the words in the dictionary.

Cmaj has a relative minor. A minor. But Bb Maj relative minor is G minor. Bb is a tone apart from C and is a seperate scale. But G minor is a tone below A minor - so it is all relative (ie relative minors are 3 semitones less than major tonic). However in this example there is actually a relationship between the two - they could be used as part of a Neopolitan 6th - or by flattening the 7th in C maj you resolve to FMaj, flatten the 7th again (in FMaj) you get to Bb Maj.

All of that is just scales. It's like the note C. It is part of CMaj, FMaj and Amin. But it is also the resolution 4th of the dominant of C (GDiminished7 [flattened 7th]). So it can be used as a pivot note to get to somewhere else. However it (the note C) is also the median of AbMaj which otherwise is unrelated (other than through progessive 6ths).

But the note C is also the dim7th of Dmaj.

All of that harmony from just one note! Make the C note part of a 'passing' phrase then you can introduce brand new progressions harmonically and/or melodically.

Long post (sorry!) to say - learn your scales. They are the bricks and mortar of music. Learn how they relate and how they can 'pivot'.

After that - you will be creating more than you thought you could!

krazy78 · Post by **krazy78** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:17 pm

+1

" Do you ask me how good a player you may become? Then tell me how
much you practice scales " Carl Czerny

Grab yourself a good scale book, & start practicing scales, chords, arpeggios
the importance of learning scales in music can not be overestimated.

I play a lot of classical piano, & practice scales every chance i get,
not only its good for finger strength, but also ear training.

Learn to play in all keys,(up ,down , alt) give special study to passing the thumb under the hand, & passing the hand over the thumb ,start off slowly , then speed up .

MonoxideC · Post by **MonoxideC** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:53 am

Thanks for the advice - it makes sense. So I guess my starting point needs to be scales, scales, and more scales

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:26 am

I'm a "pro" and I don't think I've practiced many scales ever. It really depends on the music you'd like to play I guess, but I generally don't have much use for lokrian, melodic minor, phrygian, etc. I don't play much jazz though. I do tend to practice scales when I have to play some specific part that uses it. But if you do a quick count-off and shout "d-lokrian" I'd have to think for a bit.

I would say one on one lessons are the way to go. Especially if you say that you want to go from amateur level to pro level. No way that will happen over the internet, though I respect that you've been self-taught so far. What you need is advice and feedback from someone who's much further along than you. I would look for someone schooled in jazz (because of the improv and theoretical basis) but with an interest in pop music. They do exist, I'm one.

What you could do over the internet is take harmony and/or solfège lessons, I'm pretty sure the Berklee Conservatory has online courses that you can enroll in every few months. That, combined with one on one lessons where you pick pieces you can apply the theory in, should really open up your world.

On the whole though, it really is practice practice practice. It's a skill more than textbook knowledge. So with limited free time it'll be hard either way you choose.

Sorry to be late to the party, still thought to throw my perspective on things. Always happy when someone wants to learn the keyboards better

Dogmatic1010 · Post by **Dogmatic1010** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:53 pm

Make sure you have all the chords down. Even though I'm self-tought I can still find the bass scale a bit tricky to play along with the treble scale (which I have no problem playing that scale, maybe its just the rights my dominant hand)

cobray · Post by **cobray** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:27 am

krazy78 wrote:+1

" Do you ask me how good a player you may become? Then tell me how
much you practice scales " Carl Czerny

Grab yourself a good scale book, & start practicing scales, chords, arpeggios
the importance of learning scales in music can not be overestimated.

I play a lot of classical piano, & practice scales every chance i get,
not only its good for finger strength, but also ear training.

Learn to play in all keys,(up ,down , alt) give special study to passing the thumb under the hand, & passing the hand over the thumb ,start off slowly , then speed up .

This is good to hear. I am teaching myself as well and have been practicing my scales quite a bit. I work on each one until I can play both hands at the same time ascending and descending at a minimum of 110bpm on the metronome. Sometimes I drop the metronome way down and turn the 1/4 notes into 1/8 notes. I find that the scales make for a great warm up as well.

ScoobyDoo555 · Post by **ScoobyDoo555** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:12 am

Also depends on your definition of "pro".

Classically-trained, or focused players will (quite rightly) state vital importance of scales.

IMHO, it's one aspect. For a more contemporary player, I would say that the requirements are slightly different.

Practice, practice, practice.
Chord & scale knowledge is important too, but so is feel.
Score-knowledge is useful too.

I've been playing for the last 35 years. In a pro-capacity with several well-known bands. Score-knowledge was useful, but not essential.

I don't profess to be the best player out there, but what I bring to the mix over my competing session players is my interpretation of feel.

Don't forget that attitude, professionalism, approachability and versatility are also important traits - you can be the best player in the world, but if you're a d1ck, people won't hire you.

Dan

JPWC · Post by **JPWC** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:14 am

many people are self taught, finger dexterity is best improved with scales. Learn chord theory, then learn patterns.

Then the Holy Grail to being considered professional: get paid!

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:39 am

Mono, a little clarification- an amateur is somebody who does something for free. a professional is someone who gets paid to do something. I think you are really looking to become an accomplished or competent musician. In that case learn all you can, from whatever resources are available. Then you will become a pro if you seek to do so.

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:43 pm

@ ronnfigg -

+1

Amateur does it for love, not money. Can be horrible or jaw-drop awsome, but love of the process is the common thread.

You can be both an amateur and professional. In most cases "Pro" just means you get paid to play. You may never get rich. Pro doesn't guarantee that. You're in a band. If you get more than a free beer you're a pro. Done it for more than a year? You're a pro. Filed taxes on your band income? Even the government says you're a pro.

The next question tho', is whether others would consider you "expert" or "tyro" (beginner).

You can get paid as a tyro. Many players have only rudimentary keyboard skills, but they have expert knowledge of their software, or programming or performance skills within a genre; play with two fingers on each hand and break a sweat doing it. But. as ScoobyDoo555 said, they have a "feel" for what fits.

Score-knowledge is the ability to hear the gaps and fill them... tastefully. A knowledge of 'real' instrument technique and traditional and non-traditional scoring (multiple instrument stacking) is essential to this. If you're playing a string patch can you imitate anything from Wagner or Mozart to George Martin or ELO? Can you play your brass patches to sound like Glen Miller, Phil Collins, Tower of Power or Miles Davis? If you can make everything from a string quartet to a full orchestra to a motown brass section to a klezmer band come out of your gear you're a pro.

I'd add instrument knowledge. You have to know what your gear can do and how to adjust your sound to add or subtract the elements, as needed, real time. For example, if you were in a session and were told "the strings are too harsh", could you make the adjustment(s) needed to change that? Have you already programmed 20 string patches with a variety of feels, attacks, timbres, and ambiance? Do you just adjust your playing technique to change the perceived harshness? If you can do that you're a pro.

The least tangible and hardest to get is imagination. As a modern keyboard player you have 2000, or 5000 or 10,000 sounds at your fingertips. If someone gives you one and says this is going to be the unifying sound on my whole album, could you find a way to use it without sounding exactly the same on every cut? Does it inspire a song on it's own? Given a unique sound, does it change your approach to playing as uniquely?

Ultimately I think, scales, modes, theory, technical knowledge are not in themselves the indicator of "pro". Pro is not a goal. Pro is a process.

Other people use that label more than musicians do. I've been playing for more than 40 years and still scratch my head when I see that on a form.

Ask the best musician you know (or read interviews with 'em) and most of the best of them will tell you that they've still got stuff to learn. They still struggle. They still agonize over just the right word or note. They still get nervous. They still - some of them - learn something new every time they sit down to play.

Pro is a process - ongoing - never ending. Professionalism, to me, is the willingness to learn as well as love the music. Pro is the recognition, for others as well as yourself, that you are on that road and home is more that a couple of hills behind you.

BB

Ojustaboo · Post by **Ojustaboo** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:37 am

I agree with many things said above. My own opinion is as follows.

I know people classically piano trained where you could put any music score under their nose and they could play it perfectly.

I also know people who are self taught on their keyboards where they can almost instantly improvise a really good keyboard tune to fit with whatever the band are doing.

I've noticed that usually the two above groups can't switch around.

The self taught keyboard player wouldn't have a clue where to start if someone put sheet music in front of him/her. At the same time, the classically trained pianist often won't know where to start improvising, making up a good tune for say a rock band.

When synths are involved it can get more complicated because sometimes less is more. Sometimes you only need to hold one or two keys down with the changing tone of the sound making it fit perfectly. I know people who a lot of pianists would turn their noses up saying the keyboardist doesn't know how to play properly and claim that anyone could do what the keyboardist is doing, however, usually those pianists couldn't do what the keyboardist is doing no matter how simple they think his/her playing is. The keyboardist has chosen and often tweaked the ideal sound o fit the song, and realises he/she doesn't need to show off to make it sound good.

Then there are those keyboardists who aren't all that good playing live but have the imagination and skill to make entire songs on their sequencer/daws, again any individual part may be simple technical wise to the pianist, but most pianists couldn't do what this type of keyboard player comes up with in a couple of evenings if you gave them a year.

There are also many people that fit into more than one of the above categories, pianists who fit perfectly into bands etc.

And there are of course many other types of keyboardist.

Some of my all time favourite tunes of the 70's/80's have synth lines that are very simple, and chances are, had many of those synth players been classically trained, the end result would not have been anywhere near as good and as memorable.

I've played in numerous bands over my life, never had a problem playing. Years ago when I had my Korg Micro Preset, a couple of people said I was one of the best keyboard players they had heard, they were completely wrong of course, I could only play one note at a time, what they mean is they really liked the sound of the synth I was playing.

This year at 48 years of age I have started learning to play the piano, learning all my scales, learning to read music etc. And I'm doing fine, it's amazing how much you learn over the years without realising it, the point being, this hasn't stopped me from having many many enjoyable times playing in the many groups I've belonged to over the years.

I can no longer work due to health problems so learning the piano is very therapeutic for me. But it all depends on what your trying to achieve, what sort of music you want to play etc as to how you improve.

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:46 pm

Ojustaboo,

Want to really confound an untrained player? Plug him into a scoring program and let it run while he plays, then give him the resulting sheet music.

I did that? I can't play that! (personal experience)

I was a classical tuba player first, and a self taught pianist second. No problem with bass cleff but I really have to think sometimes about treble especially stacked notes and chords.

I know all the chord forms, jazz extensions, inversions, etc., but at some point they just get in the way of knowing the tune - and that may be the crux between trained and untrained. The trained know the notes - they don't have to know the tune, the untrained know the tune and don't feel the need for the notes.

I can play stuff I cannot possibly read. I'm learning to read stuff I can just barely play - I'm hoping those two will come together sometime before I die of old age... or frustration.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

For those who want some new insight into the creative process for music and a bunch of other things I recommend looking up TEDTalks which feature video essays and demonstrations by some of the top people in science, technology, and creative arts. Most of the presentations are 5 to 10 minutes and very thought provoking... from the guy who jumps out of planes with no parachute to the woman who introduced the banjo to China.

And Thomas Dolby's their music director.

Worth a look and listen.

BB

Chriskk · Post by **Chriskk** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:49 am

Ojustaboo wrote:
The self taught keyboard player wouldn't have a clue where to start if someone put sheet music in front of him/her. At the same time, the classically trained pianist often won't know where to start improvising, making up a good tune for say a rock band.

Your first sentence is 100% correct. Your second sentence is partially correct. A classically trained pianist can easily learn how to improvise if s/he wants to.

DitchTheDogma · Post by **DitchTheDogma** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:58 pm

All I can say is practice, practice, practice.

I am a self tought keyboardist. It took me forever to build up much speed in playing the keyboard, especially in my left hand. When practicing speed, use the chromatic scale or to tune it down a notch, the lydian scale.

Hope this helps.