Just picked up my Kronos 61!

[BillW]

Bit touchy McHale??!!

no. I just absolutely hate Roland products BECAUSE of how unreliable they are. I love Roland's older stuff (D-50 and before) but everything since then is SUPER thin sounding and made with junk parts. And to say they are more reliable and/or built better than Korg makes me want to cry it's so ridiculous.

The pro stuff from any of the big 3 is pretty sturdy. The Fantom G is a tank and certainly not thin sounding by any stretch. You can't tell me that those plastic ends on the Triton Extreme and Karma are not prone to cracking. Or how about the cheap pads on the M3, the wobbly sliders and the text wearing off of the buttons? Check out the Kurzweil forums...a casual glance would leave one to believe that half of their products need to be returned and the other half require some input from tech support before they even work. Not that Roland is perfect...some Juno G screens have had to be replaced. The pointless bashing just gets old.

[McHale]

I've never had a Korg product come out of the box faulty. The last 2 roland controllers I bought (within the last year) were so bad they were unusable. I buy BOSS products for my guitars and have zero problems with them.

End caps? Hardly the same thing.

And ALL new Rolands sound thin and crappy to me. Tack on their utterly worthless keyboard amps and I have zero confidence that Roland actually gives a crap about their keyboard line. If they did, they'd stop rehashing old products over and over and over again.

[synthguy]

I've never had a Korg product come out of the box faulty.

My first M3.

Had bad main outputs that wouldn't play stereo unless the cables were half plugged in. Very odd flaw, no one could fathom it. But the second has been rock solid.

Honestly, I don't care if I have to send my Kronos to the shop every two months, I want those nine synths.

Okay, I'm lying there, but I'll put up with a lot for a good musical companion.

[TSUNAMI]

Many moons ago it took 3 tritons before i had one that worked, First one the screen was dead, second one 3 of the keys where damaged third one was OK ... Till some F@£$ER knicked it !!!

[aron]

My cheapo Juno-G required a LOT of work to make sound decent. It required the Piano Plug-in, plus lots of EQ and programming - but it worked perfectly and never failed me. It just was a little too cheap for the requirements.

I have owned a lot of stuff, but the one keyboard that gave me fits (and still does) is the PC361.

Transformers held in by self tapping screws into a channel - these transformers rip themselves out of the channel when the keyboard is knocked about.

The keyboard failed me onstage - really got me upset. No repair center close by and right now it's still in for service - over a month now.

I've been dealing with a turn on issue - imagine wondering if it's really going to turn on.... on the gig.

Finally, the thing that really gets me is so many people telling you that the piano is just really great. You just have to "get used to it". Wow, I can't trust my own ears? It's all in my perception - I see, get used to it. Every other manufacturer is wrong (with their pianos) and that piano is the correct version. Meanwhile when I play my other keyboards - everyone ELSE tells me how good the piano sounds compared to the PC361's piano. Whatever.

Despite the extreme unreliability, the rest of it is pretty good and the polyphony algorithm is the best period.

Never had a Yamaha fail me - just great keyboards - now too heavy and too big and just not enough polyphony for what I need.

[jahrome]

And ALL new Rolands sound thin and crappy to me. Tack on their utterly worthless keyboard amps and I have zero confidence that Roland actually gives a crap about their keyboard line. If they did, they'd stop rehashing old products over and over and over again.

But all of these companies are doing the same thing right?

Yamaha Motif series, Roland Fantom series, and now Korg has released the Kronos....whose OS is similar to the Triton Studio, OASYS, and M3.

[McHale]

But all of these companies are doing the same thing right?

Hardly. Roland hasn't had a new product in many many years. MOOG's idea of a new product is a product that has been out for years in a new color. Korg has never been one to rest on their laurels (like Yamaha has with the tired Motif line). Check out the Electribes, Monotron, KAOSS pads, soft synths, KAOSSilator, etc. Korg continues to take chances and so far it's been working for them.

[Rosen Sound]

And just disregard the guy that actually repairs the stuff... jeesh.
-Mc

I never said i am some world class repairman... but lets say this....
I see keyboards, of ALL brands, open, gutted, and flawed, EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

At this point, I think i can say i know a good from bad build. The M50 has a bad build, inside and out, the Fantom G, has a good exterior, terrible interior! For example: One guy brings in a G that doesnt sound correctly (terrible sounds coming out of this keyboard you couldnt imagine...) cause roland thought it would be funny to put two boards on top of each other floating with no support.... one bad airline bump (as this guy had) and the boards touch each other and cause problems. The d50 was cool, has weird contact rubbers though... dont even get me started on the modern junos...

no. I just absolutely hate Roland products BECAUSE of how unreliable they are. I love Roland's older stuff (D-50 and before) but everything since then is SUPER thin sounding and made with junk parts. And to say they are more reliable and/or built better than Korg makes me want to cry it's so ridiculous.

Amen, even though i'm sort of offended by you.

The pro stuff from any of the big 3 is pretty sturdy.

LOL no. Korg takes that cake of good build, Roland is second, yamaha has a good build but bad PCB design. When yamaha boards come in its almost always for a replacement circuit board.

The Fantom G is a tank and certainly not thin sounding by any stretch

I went to my local guitar center (hell hole..) with a client the other day (Besides repair, i also do advisements to people who know nothing about keyboards, and no i dont just point at korgs.)
He has heard of the fantom G, and wanted it. I know how to use a G for the most part, so I was showing him some of the sounds on it (this one had some ARX in it) and he actually laughed when he heard the orchestral sounds. He then wandered off to an X50... an X...50... and was astonished by the orchestral sounds compared to the G. The G sucks if you ask me, it has some cool stuff of course. A wonderful pipe organ! but man that thing isnt worth the money. The guy ended up getting an M3 instead of the triton since he wants something that will be serviceable for the next few years.

But all of these companies are doing the same thing right?

Yamaha Motif series, Roland Fantom series, and now Korg has released the Kronos....whose OS is similar to the Triton Studio, OASYS, and M3.

The kronos should have a triton-like UI.... The triton has the best UI on any keyboard in my opinion... Its so incredibly user friendly its unbelievable. thats just my opinion though.


Anyway, disregard me all you want. Ill never buy a roland keyboard (maybe an Xr or JV module..) because I see everyday why they are so terrible. I am happy that some of you have had good experiences, consider yourselves lucky!

[McHale]

The M50 has a bad build, inside and out

I've worked on my fair share of M50's (and many other Korg products going back to the 70's). The "out" is all metal except the end caps and bottom. The end caps are actually more sturdy than the Triton line and the bottom is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned as it was done as a weight saving measure. Same switches and jog dial as their other models and the display it self responds faster than that on the Triton. So the "out" as you put it isn't bad at all. As far as the "in", the main issue is the keybed design which is admittedly very cheap. But I don't see a problem with any of the rest of the internals.

So I'm curious, why is the M50 bad, inside and out?

[Rosen Sound]

the touchscreen, is more responsive then the triton classic, less responsive to the triton studio, or triton extreme. I read that in an SOS review, and tested it the other day while owning an TEX and having an M50 and triton classic in. And can say, its very true...

most M50's that come in are usually for the joystick (i get that more then the tritons! which is very weird to me...), or for the buttons. The buttons seem to be the main deal. They wear out incredibly fast. and they break super easy... and they come in blocks of like 4 i think, which can be problematic when they just want to replace that one always used button with a standalone button on the board they never use (rush jobs...) the tactile switches underneath wear out quickly.

To summarize the many issues. they always come in with SOMETHING not working on the front panel.. sometimes as petty as the buttons work, LEDs dont. or more serious like the buttons work but the touch screen doesnt.

even though its made of metal, please keep in mind that the inner build still is greatly effected. if you drop one, the metal aint gonna help you... its still gonna destroy the terribly built inside of the thing.

[jahrome]

But all of these companies are doing the same thing right?

Hardly. Roland hasn't had a new product in many many years. MOOG's idea of a new product is a product that has been out for years in a new color. Korg has never been one to rest on their laurels (like Yamaha has with the tired Motif line). Check out the Electribes, Monotron, KAOSS pads, soft synths, KAOSSilator, etc. Korg continues to take chances and so far it's been working for them.

I am referring to the keyboard workstations. They are all pretty much rehashes of previous models.

[McHale]

the touchscreen, is more responsive then the triton classic, less responsive to the triton studio, or triton extreme. I read that in an SOS review, and tested it the other day while owning an TEX and having an M50 and triton classic in. And can say, its very true...

most M50's that come in are usually for the joystick (i get that more then the tritons! which is very weird to me...), or for the buttons. The buttons seem to be the main deal. They wear out incredibly fast. and they break super easy... and they come in blocks of like 4 i think, which can be problematic when they just want to replace that one always used button with a standalone button on the board they never use (rush jobs...) the tactile switches underneath wear out quickly.

To summarize the many issues. they always come in with SOMETHING not working on the front panel.. sometimes as petty as the buttons work, LEDs dont. or more serious like the buttons work but the touch screen doesnt.

even though its made of metal, please keep in mind that the inner build still is greatly effected. if you drop one, the metal aint gonna help you... its still gonna destroy the terribly built inside of the thing.

interesting. So the next obvious question is, does the M3 (and Kronos) and M50 use the same joystick mechanism? They certainly feel the same to me. Since the M3 has been out longer, you should also be seeing M3's come in for joystick issues. I have seen a couple people complain about LED's not working and I've personally seen a couple mashed chord buttons (which do feel kinda cheap now that I think about it). The external power supply is the biggest mistake as far as the M50 is concerned IMHO.

When they come in, are they due to being dropped or just gremlins? I've gigged mine since it was new and have had zero problems with it. Right now, I'm not even using a backup because the Kronos was supposed to be in months ago.

[McHale]

I am referring to the keyboard workstations. They are all pretty much rehashes of previous models.

I still disagree. Explain the differences between all the Motifs for the past 10 years. VERY little.

From Triton to M3 (same class workstation) is a HUGE upgrade and from OASYS to KRONOS is pretty significant compared to the competition and the price is beyond belief compared to the OASYS and what you get for that same money from ROLAND or YAMAHA. I agree with S.O.S. magazine that before the Kronos, Korg was on top. The Kronos EASILY keeps them there.

[Rosen Sound]

interesting. So the next obvious question is, does the M3 (and Kronos) and M50 use the same joystick mechanism? They certainly feel the same to me. Since the M3 has been out longer, you should also be seeing M3's come in for joystick issues. I have seen a couple people complain about LED's not working and I've personally seen a couple mashed chord buttons (which do feel kinda cheap now that I think about it). The external power supply is the biggest mistake as far as the M50 is concerned IMHO.

When they come in, are they due to being dropped or just gremlins? I've gigged mine since it was new and have had zero problems with it. Right now, I'm not even using a backup because the Kronos was supposed to be in months ago.

Yes indeed they do, which is unfortunate. I do see some M3's with the joysticks yes. One local guy who lives around the corner always breaks his m3 joystick, its really weird! He plays arabic music and if im not mistaken they abuse the hell out of the sticks, so its forgiven kinda...
I get less M3's cause i THINK most people just buy the module... a lot of people are very not into the look of the m3.... the LED issue ive never seen. i've replaced the worn text buttons though. I hate external power supplies to DEATH.

Please read this korg...
When you made the radias, being able to rack is was one of the greatest features!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but i also have to mount that damned external power supply!!! I have to drill into my rack to tie it down or else it flies everywhere! Please! if you may another module one day! let it have internal power sources PLEASE.

Continuing.. usually gremlins. I think we need to understand that most people who give enough of a crap to become an active member these forums probably know a thing or two about keyboard design, how to care for one and how to use most of its features (and when stuck come here to ask!)
If me and you, mchale, lived in the same city, and you called me up and said hey rob i need to borrow your tex for a gig, i would probably trust you. however, here in LA, there are many trust funded, 'up and coming artist', and snotty brats whos mothers bought them their boards since one day they wil be huge. These people have no idea how to work them, live off presets, and definately dont know how to care for a keyboard. Its sad.

the triton classic i was refering to about the M50s screen is still here... the lady who brought it managed to:
- break the L/R outputs..
- break the sustain jack
- and TOTALLY. TOTALLY. TOTAAALLYYYY dirty this sucker up.. and i mean like... i have NO idea how she did it... i mean i know the silver tritons are prone to dirt... but im fairly certain this girl rubbed this thing in mud... it was discusting. It even smelled!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had to clean the hell out of it and now it looks new... but you would be astonished on how stupid people can be with their expensive things.

And im here to fix them....

I guess, in la, there are more people who fall under the "I can drive but i can't fix a car" thing... its very sad... but these people really treat there boards bad.


It sucks that kronos has that joystick
and doesnt have the yamaha keybed

[jahrome]

With the Kronos, you get the 9 synth engines and it streams from SSD. But the rest is pretty much identical to the OASYS and the M3. And still, the M3 has some sequence editing functions that Kronos doesn't have.

The core of the Fantom G is pretty much the same as the X. It's sequencer is a little better but it's sampler isn't.

The Motif XF adds the flash memory and improvements to the GUI.

The differences between these current keyboards and the ones that came before it are not drastic IMHO.