Plug-In Demo requested

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:42 pm

Sina172 wrote:Kevin, regarding the Sequencer in the KRONOS, what you said IS untrue.

KRONOS has 480 PPQN note. It features the SAME SysEx Editor the M3 has to edit SysEx parameters. You can't see what they are in the OASYS, but in KRONOS you can.

What's really missing still is the On-Screen Fader Movements, the Track View screen, Cue List and the Piano Roll Editor (which on the M3 is incredible given how you can actually MOVE notes with your finger like you can on a mouse in a DAW. That's amazing!). Then of course the Track Meters are also missing.

The rest is there, though. So your accustations of KRONOS Sequencer not having any improvements over the OASYS Sequencer is false.

I wouldn't be surprised if KRONOS saw these missing elements in a future update, though.

Sina

Sina - you're absolutely correct - thanks for correcting me on that - appreciated.

And you are absolutely right - Kronos is picking up where the OASYS left off, and it is entirely plausible that future updates of Kronos will include M3 improved sequencer functionaliy or even more.

Cheers,
Kevin.

jmexio · Post by **jmexio** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:09 am

Kevin Nolan wrote:Not one feature of the dozens of serious, outstanding issues of the OASYS sequencer, which OASYS users begged and screamed to be improved over the years, has been addressed in the Kronos - not one.

Hi Kevin!

Besides the fact that we don't know if everything is finalized so we can't know for sure and all that, would you please care to comment some of those issues? Just so we know what to expect, or what not to expect... And to get an idea of how serious these issues are. Maybe just a comment on your top two annoyances will suffice for us to get a glimpse.

Thanks!
Juan Miguel

peter_schwartz · Post by **peter_schwartz** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:31 am

Kevin Nolan wrote:Remember - Kronos is basically an OASYS with some add on EXi's. So Korg have not put any fundamental new thought into Kronos, and this is likely to be the case w.r.t it's DAW integration. It's a repackage job (albeit a really nice one I'll be buying in a heartbeat (and I own 2 OASYS)). But Kronos' OS is a clone of the OASYS - right down to the sequencer (warts and all and boy are their warts). Not one feature of the dozens of serious, outstanding issues of the OASYS sequencer, which OASYS users begged and screamed to be improved over the years, has been addressed in the Kronos - not one. It's sequencer is identical to that of OASYS. So I can't imagine that Korg put any more thought whatsoever into the Kronos DAW VSTi integration beyond what M3 already offers, at this juncture. That might change in future updates.

Inaccurate, Kevin. I think you mean well in trying to be (seemingly) authoritative in your statements, but to say that no new thought went into Kronos is so incredibly insulting to all the people who worked so hard to bring this keyboard to market. I take it that you respect Dan, Jerry, Skippy, Stephen Kay and Jack Hotop? Well, if that's the case then I would like to suggest that you think a lot more carefully before posting about what you think you know about the Kronos's development. What you wrote is a slap in the face to them and the dozens of other people who worked hard to bring this keyboard to market.

And besides that, what you wrote about the K being a clone of the O with their sequencers being identical is just flat out incorrect.

So I can't imagine that Korg put any more thought whatsoever into the Kronos DAW VSTi integration beyond what M3 already offers, at this juncture. That might change in future updates.

The mind boggles at how you arrived at those theories and conclusions.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:51 am

Peter -

The Kronos OS is the OASYS OS. 7 of the 9 EXi's are the same in every detail. The other two are indeed superlative, but they are add-ons; as are the new sample packages.

You're assuming that because I claim the Kronos to be the OASYS updated that some how that's an insult both to the Kronos or to Korg. Nothing could be further from the truth. I own and use two OASYS among many other instruments in my studio - indeed I have spent the last three years optimising my OASYS instruments across thousands of programs and their organisation on the OASYS and on Hard Disk to get the most form it. The OASYS is THAT deep and capable.

And apart from Sina's correction of timing resolution, the Sequencer and even the Karma Engine are those form the OASYS (there may be some very minor improvement in both but nothing new or fundamental).

So Peter please cool it with the personal attackes here – don’t make this personal please - there is no emotion, 'coded insults' or other bias in my posts here. I call it as I see it. I've read the specs and watched the demos of Kronos, and have used the OASYS in a myriad of projects over 5 years, and in virtually every way other than the well known extensions (which as I’ve pointed out are absolutely worth it - the EXi's, dual cores sample packs and live performance facilities) the Kronos is the OASYS with those additions. None of the Kronos's core features are implemented with new software - it's 6 year old OASYS OS's with updates.

Indeed the OASYS retains some significant advantages - including the 2GB or Ram and a far superior control interface (which by the way is very important to this instrument because despite the power under the hood, the touch screen is just for selection, not for interaction, so the control surface is used all the time).

Now, as Sina pointed out correctly - this is where Kronos is starting from - but this IS where it is starting from. I am confident of powering on my new Kronos in a few months and being able to work at it immediately, with no surprises in any of the core features (constituting the vast majority of what the instrument is about).

So for the purposes of this thread; the point about DAW integration is fair, in my opinion. Since Korg have simply extended OASYS's actual core software, it is a fair assumption (again Peter - read my posts - I made no factual claim in this regard) - I said it is a fair assumption that since no original OASYS features have been enhanced (apart from sequencer timing), then it is a fair assumption to suppose that the Kronos Daw integration will be that of the M3. I could be wrong - and Peter - again please read all of my posts over on the OASYS forum - I am always delighted to stand corrected - there's no arrogance on my part I can assure you. But this looks to me that Korg are repackaging the OASYS to recoup their significant R&D effort into OASYS which never materialised through sales. Everything about Kronos points to that - including it's incredibly cut down quality in hardware interface - but as said - reuse of features from OASYS (and perhaps M3 w.r.t DAW integrations) looks like the order of the day. In my opinion, ALL effort has gone into the new features mentioned already, with maximum effort to reuse existing OASYS (and perhaps M3 DAW) technology.

Juan - I did not personally have particular gripes about the sequencer. I just use it to write music and get the hell on with it. Instead it was a large cohort of the OASYS forum who did. There have been many heated debates on the OASYS sequencer over on the OASYS forum. And I mean long and heated. Just a few issues include no cue lists - so Kronos will not have those. Then there is not interactivity with the screen like there is with the M3 (in fact in the opinion of many OASYS users, the M3 got the sequencer update that OASYS users had been calling for years). Given that these significant improvements have been implemented for the M3 - but not for Kronos - is another pointer to the blanket reuse of OASYS software in Kronos. But as Sina has pointed out, features such as the M3 sequencer may appear in Kronos in an update. But there ARE going to be a lot of unhappy Kronos users when they get to use the Kronos sequencer - it does not stand up to close scrutiny. Again - if elusive features escape me that are indeed present I will be always delighted to stand corrected - I'm not trying to be right - I' trying to be accurate and critical (in the 'critical thinking' sense - not the 'damning' sense).

Juan - go the the korguser.net website and download the OASYS and M3 sequencer specs and you'll get a good sense of the differences. Or do a search on the word sequencer on the OASYS forum and you'll uncover many, many discussions on it's shortcomings.

With all these caveats, I will be buying a Kronos88 the minute it's out (I'm awaiting a price from Digital Village in the UK from my contact there). So the Kronos will be awesome - but there needs to be clear perspective on it's pedigree, it's shortcomings and it's truly jaw-droppingly good features.

Kevin.

robinkle · Post by **robinkle** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:57 am

Kronos: Clone of Oasys or not. Now the software is about fully developed and have been financed from the sales of Oasys. Kronos can now be sold for a lower price. yey!

peter_schwartz · Post by **peter_schwartz** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:23 am

Kevin Nolan wrote:The Kronos OS is the OASYS OS. 7 of the 9 EXi's are the same in every detail. The other two are indeed superlative, but they are add-ons; as are the new sample packages.

Yes, 7 of the 9 EXi's are identical (though I'll leave it to Dan to point out any finer details that I'm not aware of.) But by saying that the additional two are "add-ons" is dismissive to a fault. Do you have any idea what kind of work it takes to include one of these "add-on's"? So easy to take for granted, isn't it? Specs on paper, and "pfft", it's an "add-on".

On a more positive note, when you hear the Kronos in person I think you'll be totally blown away by the difference in the piano and e.piano's as compared to the O. Personally I loved the Oasys piano sounds. But the new piano is mind-blowing. And aside from everything else, it was the piano sounds that sold me on getting a Kronos myself.

You're assuming that because I claim the Kronos to be the OASYS updated that some how that's an insult both to the Kronos or to Korg. Nothing could be further from the truth.

No, my objection was to what you wrote, and I quote, "So Korg have not put any fundamental new thought into Kronos". That is insulting. With the obvious presence of people here who have worked on both keyboards it is, I believe, only reasonable to expect that you won't get a kindly reaction to a comment like that, whether some of us choose to keep their reaction to themselves or not.

And apart from Sina's correction of timing resolution, the Sequencer and even the Karma Engine are those form the OASYS (there may be some very minor improvement in both but nothing new or fundamental).

You wrote: "It's sequencer is identical to that of OASYS." It's not. The differences might be minor on paper, but I wouldn't call an increase in sequencer resolution insignificant. I know there are a whole lot of things that you would have liked to see in the K's sequencer. But an increase in resolution is nothing to sneeze at; it means that when you record something that's not going to be quantized, playback is going to be much truer to what you played.

Kevin, no one's stopping you from calling things as you see them. I'm just doing the same, and for the reasons I stated above. Really man, if you had any idea as to what it takes to bring an instrument like this to market you'd be a lot more chastened in your assessment of "how much thought" went into it.

[edditedd for grammatticcall difficulteez]

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:38 pm

Not only has midi resolution changed, audio also is now possible in 24bit.

Despite the common basics there are so many addons and changes in the Kronos, compared to the Oasys (SSD streaming alone means another league), that nobody can call it just an Oasys at street price. And both the Piano and EPiano engines are essentials, not just "add-ons", bringing the synth to a completely other level, even compared to a full blown Oasys.

If I had an Oasys and a Kronos before me, new and at the same price, I would without even hesitating take the Kronos, despite some hardware goodies on the Oasys side (outputs, screen etc.). The Kronos simply is the considerably(!) more advanced synth of both!

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:05 pm

Peter and Jim -

With you on all those points for sure. Like yourselves I'm keenly awaiting the Kronos - it is a significant step forward and you'll find no harping back to past glories from me - I'm over the moon to see the Kronos and the more people who buy it the better so we can share / exchange expertise, sounds and so on.

My only point was to point out that it appears that there is a lot in Kronos that were gripe points on the OASYS and it doesn't look like they've been resolved -yet - so w.r.t. DAW integration, I suspect (with no evidence admittedly) that it'll be similar to M3 level integration. But (again as Sina pointed out) - Kronos will surely improve over time with updates so hopefully some of the outstanding issues will become resolved. Onwards and upwards!!

Cheers,
Kevin.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:33 pm

Yes, I'm a bit sceptical as well, about how smooth DAW integration will work in everyday exchange, at least in the first OS version. But I guess it will do for the start, and become more advanced over time.

Michael Blue · Post by **Michael Blue** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:40 am

Dear Lord this became a mess.

Kevin, while I really appreciate your thought and effort, you REALLY need to consider something here. You are NOT part of Korg, you were NOT part of the development of the Kronos and you do NOT have access to any other info that what the rest of us have seen/heard. PLEASE, for the love of God, QUIT trying to post as some official authority on things you don't know.

Sina, nice to know someone's watching and trying to keep things straight. Didn't know you were on this site.

For the record, I asked a simple question, I'm not demanding answers, just patiently waiting for the first demo, like the rest of us.

I WON'T be reading/responding to other posts like Kevin's. If you feel like wasting your time trying to post "authoritative" information you're not really privy to, I hope Sina, Jim or someone else will set you straight - I'm not wasting my time on it.

Just waiting for official word...

Thanks!

~M

Sina172 · Post by **Sina172** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:35 am

RichF · Post by **RichF** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:41 pm

Hi guys,

Just to clarify one point, the sequencer in Kronos does not have the SysEx editing functionality from the M3.

And now, some editor details:

1. The editor runs standalone, or as a VST or AU-compatible plug-in. If you're using ProTools, just use a VST-RTAS wrapper.
2. The editor DOES require Kronos to be connected in order to hear anything. There is no sound source in the software itself.
3. Although it shares some fundamental architecture with the M3 editor (one instance controls all 16 timbres), the Kronos editor is VERY different... It feels much closer to interacting with the actual interface on the Kronos display. If you're editing an MS-20EX Program, for example, you get to use the patch panel.
4. The editor has librarian functionality that allows for some often-requested ordering features.

That's all for now... Hope this answers some of your questions. As always, specs are subject to change.

-Rich

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:52 pm

That was a very helpful overview.

Some screenshots would be fine: it seems there haven't been any editor/librarian pics so far. Any chance?

Sorry for my limited English, probably a dumb question, but I didn't understand the smiley-sentence about the "often-requested ordering features".

RichF · Post by **RichF** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:56 pm

Sorry, no screenshots/videos yet. We'll post them as soon as possible.

The "ordering features" refer to the ability to view an entire bank of sounds, and click/drag the sounds to new locations.

-Rich

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:04 pm

Thanks: it's VERY useful for everyday work to have such a librarian function integrated into the editor (and not as separate program like I had it with my Fantom G).