How to put a combi in a user tab in program

dnlfacundo · Post by **dnlfacundo** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:41 am

I've been making some pretty good combis but I would like to sequence them with ease instead of 4 or however many tracks.So I would like to know if I can some how copy my combi to program mode in the user tab so when I sequence I can copy that sound to a single track instead of multiple tracks.It would just make it better for me change the volume as one isteaf of multiple.

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:58 pm

If a combi contains 4 tracks, that is at minimum 4 multisamples on a single oscillator program, or 8 multisamples using two oscillators. A program can only contain 2 multisamples per oscillator without crossfading to play at once, so "theoretically" you could cramp 4 single osc program in a single one. But of course that will only be the samples playing. They'll have to share the settings.
Each program has its own characteristics, with different filter, envelopes, lfo settings, etc. Is very unlikely say a Piano patch can share the same settings as an organ patch. Although possible, it will sound odd.

My recommendation is to try to create a single program with the samples you believe will achieve the closest results you can get from the combi you are trying to copy.

But the answer to your question is no. You can't join 4 or more programs in a single one. That is what combis are for.

dnlfacundo · Post by **dnlfacundo** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:35 pm

Will then how can I copy a motion patch to the user tab so I can tweak the sound totally different.And how in the he'll can I alter the sound and save the settings?I read you can do it in patch edit but that is no were to be found.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:43 pm

you tweak it in the edit pages.

You have to understand that the user category isn't like a file full of folders like on a computer. It is more like a search. You select the user category and it will show you all of the patches that are set to the category 'user'. A bit like searching for all 'word document' files in a computer possibly.

The actual patches (and the same goes for combis) are organised by their bank and patch number. So for example lets say you have a motion synth in B025. You can go to B025, press write, and select a different slot to save that patch to. Whatever destination location you select will have its contents overwritten and replaced by the currently selected program that you are 'writing'. That is how you copy patches.

There is the concept of the 'edit buffer' too. What this is, is an area of memory where the programs are actually stored when you load and edit them. So when you select a program, all of its parameters are copied to the edit buffer, and when you play a note, it is getting its parameters from the edit buffer, not the permenant patch location. So when you edit a patch, you haven't changed the actual permenant storage of that patch until you 'write' it.

So, you can take a patch, edit it beyond recognition, and the hit 'write' and choose a different destination. The destination will have the new patch with all of your edits, and the old patch will remain intact.

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:07 pm

What I do is copy the patch to the new location with new name and all. Then I edit it there. When you are programming patches or combis on a regular basis, you give a lot of use to the quick save feature (tapping the sequencer write button), and it has happened to me in a few occasions that I accidentally destroyed the original patch. Copying it first will leave the original intact and safe.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:10 pm

mocando wrote:What I do is copy the patch to the new location with new name and all. Then I edit it there. When you are programming patches or combis on a regular basis, you give a lot of use to the quick save feature (tapping the sequencer write button), and it has happened to me in a few occasions that I accidentally destroyed the original patch. Copying it first will leave the original intact and safe.

I know, I reccommend this too.
It probably wasn't clear, the example I gave was only to demonstrate the way the edit buffer works.

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:40 pm

dnlfacundo wrote:Will then how can I copy a motion patch to the user tab so I can tweak the sound totally different.And how in the he'll can I alter the sound and save the settings?I read you can do it in patch edit but that is no were to be found.

For the tone of your questions, you seem mad and frustrated with your skills on setting up the M50. I don't know how long have you owned your M50, but mastering a complex keyboard like this is not a matter of a few days. Not mentioning that your chances are even lower if you don't take the time to read the Manual and Parameter Guide. The later maybe not in its entirety, since is very large, but using it as guide to look for specific issues that you need to go deeper.
It's been more than a year since I have my M50, not having any experience before on complex keyboards. A few basic Yamahas (cheap psr's) and before that, a very old Wurlitzer. So nothing near as complex. Now is the time that I'm feeling confident enough to tweak its features at a high level, still I feel I'm scratching the surface since every day I find new ways of doing things better.

I recommend you take the time to read more about it, do some trial and error yourself and ask all the questions you like here, since this is what this great forum is all about. If it wasn't for it, I wouldn't be even near where I am now.

At the end of the day, is supposed to be fun, help you unwind and unstress yourself, not the other way around.

dnlfacundo · Post by **dnlfacundo** » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:00 am

yeah i guess you can i am a little frustrated because i got this awsome keyboad for a few mounths and until now ive just been using presets.Most of these preset are very basic instruments with no real spice to them unlike a fantom x were most of the sounds are edited with loads of effects and tweaked.Ill try editing the copyed patches the best i can but not to sure if editing it means effects or lfos and stuff.Im more intreasted in change the sounds completely so i guess it would be its own parameters but like i said how do you edit them?Ive tryed the knobs but i think thats just for real time but it makes it very simple,so how?

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:21 am

There are two kind of sounds on the M50, combis and programs. Combis have been designed to be usable from the ground up, and you could find good sounds there, programs are supposed to be used on combis, so some of them sound a little blunt. It seems to me you need a bit reading in sound design. Tweaking the knobs will have no effect once you turn the keyboard off and on again, since, as you said, they are for realtime performance only. Their settings won't get saved.

BTW, have you tried to use the "Page Select" button ? There is everything there.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:40 pm

All the parameters that make up a program or combi can be found under the page select button.

A combi is kind of aimed at performance or otherwise at larger collections of sounds - a combi is made of up to 16 'timbres' (call them tracks if you like) of programs, so if you wanted to layer piano, organ, strings, and then add an arpeggiated bass line on the bottom few keys too, then combi mode would be the place to go.

Program mode is where you actually work with the original sounds. You can't load samples but there is a lot to work with in the existing samples - you can say put a brass sound on one oscillator and crossfade it with a synth brass sound, then have a pure saw wave with its own filter and LFO and EG settings on the seccond oscillator. And effects are part of a program too but they are not carried over to sequencer or combi modes unless you specifically copy them when building a song or combi. You have access to all five insert effects, two masters, and one total effect (plus per-part EQ) whether in program, sequencer, or combi mode.

So if you want to make a guitar lead with amp sim, two distortions, phaser, massive reverb and delay, chorus, etc, then you can' but don't expect to be able to use that in a combi or sequence at the same time as something else that uses a lot of effects.

dnlfacundo · Post by **dnlfacundo** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:19 am

So for making original sounds it would be program mode then

Synastikki · Post by **Synastikki** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:30 am

Yes. Program mode is the basic place for making sounds... of course the combi mode can also be used to create something different by combining and layering different sounds and putting them through different effects that they originally were, but still the program mode is the place where you can make really new sounds from scratch and do the deepest editing..

dnlfacundo · Post by **dnlfacundo** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:27 pm

Any tips on making new sounds cause I was doing random stuff and ended up getting a very weird robotiic sound.

kanthos · Post by **kanthos** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:27 pm

Yes. Find a tutorial on subtractive synthesis, like the Sounds on Sound one that's linked here every so often, and be prepared to spend a lot of time playing around and learning.