Help needed with connecting my KP3!!

[kuju]

Hi all - my first post and a slightly embarrasing one...i suspect i know the answer but just in case...

Ok so my current set up is:

2x Technics 1210's connected to a Gemini 626 USB mixer in standard configuration (ie chanels 1 & 2)

The main OUT of the mixer goes to Line in on the KP3 and then the Line out of the KP3 goes to the active speakers. (This is strictly a bedroomdj set up for my own benefit as you may have guessed)

There is no effect loop on the mixer

My problem is - there are some aspects of the sampling on the KP3 (notably lining up beats with whatever the output is) that seem to be best done by muting the KP3 and sorting it out...then un-mute and off you go.

But of course if I do that I just mute everything...which is far from ideal.

So - given the lack of effects send/return what other options do i have for connecting this so i can ideally assign the effects to one turntable or another or just ise the sampler without affecting the whole output?

A patch box of some kind maybe?

The mixer and KP3 are both xmas presents so replacing the mixer isn't a desirable option just yet and it does everything else i want it to do.

I'm not new to all this at all but i'm straying into territory more technicl than i currently understand...i'm hoping that will change soon!!

Any clues folks?

[xmlguy]

Just get an additional cheap mini mixer like the Behringer Eurorack UB802 that has an effects loop. You don't need to replace your existing mixer.

[kuju]

THank you for that xmlguy....er...... so let me get this straight - I connect the turntables to the mini-mixer - the KP3 to the effects loop so I can then apply the effects to whatever I want (and can presumably add in other sound sources)....hmmm....... so am I right in thinking i would then output each of the turntable channels to their respective slots on the main mixer?


Sorry...having trouble visualising all this. No idea why I can usually sort these things!!

[Pastor-of-Muppets]

There are probably other options but ...

You could run the decks into the Gemini and continue using the faders on that for mixing.

Run the Gemini's output to mixer2 (e.g. a Behringer UB802) then put the KP3 on mixer2's FX loop, and send mixer2's output to your speakers.

That would mean you can't apply KP3 effects to a single channel - the KP3 would only receive the (already mixed) output of the gemini - but that's better than nothing.

[xmlguy]

Yes, what Pastor-of-Muppets said is what I was thinking.

Another option is to buy a miniKP instead of the mixer, and use it on one turntable and the KP3 on the other. Yet another option is to sell/return your KP3, and buy two miniKP instead, if you only need KP effects and aren't using the sampling pads. Or buy one more KP3. It's quite common for DJs to have multiple KaossPads, probably because the more Kaoss the better.

[kuju]

There are probably other options but ...

You could run the decks into the Gemini and continue using the faders on that for mixing.

Run the Gemini's output to mixer2 (e.g. a Behringer UB802) then put the KP3 on mixer2's FX loop, and send mixer2's output to your speakers.

That would mean you can't apply KP3 effects to a single channel - the KP3 would only receive the (already mixed) output of the gemini - but that's better than nothing.

Ok....i'm confused. Is that not essentially the same as having the main output of the Gemini connected to the input of the KP3 as I have now? Not sure I understand the difference (save for the extra mixer obviously).

My main thing I suppose is that - since I do want to use the sampler - it would be nice to have the ability to mute the sample banks while I sort them out and then throw them into the mix. All fine and well when the KP3 doesn't sit bang in the middle of the main out but when it does...and it does with my set-up....then it proves a little tricky. Hmmm. Oh well - hardly the end of teh world! I still have a new mixer and KP3 bought for me so I can't complain!

[xmlguy]

No, it's not the same because the second mixer with effects loop lets you control the mix of the main output with the output of the KP3, so that you can always have some of the main mix always being output, no matter what you do on the KP3. Some effects and functions on the KP3 stop/kill the output, so the mixer keeps some of the music going through to the PA at all times. See page 9 of the KP3 manual, and pretend the second mixer is the DJ mixer. The connection switch needs to be in the send position, so that the effects return will only contain the KP3 effects without a mix of the main signal, because the mixer will control the blend of the main with the effects return.

[Pastor-of-Muppets]

Is that not essentially the same as having the main output of the Gemini connected to the input of the KP3 as I have now?

No - because the KP3 is on the 2nd mixer's send/return loop not in-line, so you can have the output of the gemini (the "dry" signal) going straight to the speakers, bypassing the KP3. You can also send the dry signal to the KP3 (on the UB802 that's done per-channel with the blue "FX" knob) to add effects and/or sample it, but the output of the KP3 (the "wet" signal) will only go to the speakers if you mix it back in (on the UB802 that's done with the "Aux Return" knob.)

So you can control the mix of dry and wet, and if you need to fiddle about with the KP3 output you can do that without muting, because it doesn't go to the speakers unless you want it to.

With the KP3 in-line between the mixer and speakers you don't get to control the dry/wet mix - the speakers get the output of the KP3 and nothing else. You can adjust the FX Depth and sample volume to get a similar result, but you get much more control with a send/return loop.

[xmlguy]

Hey, is there an echo in here? (smile). Thanks, m-of-p, I think we are communicating telepathically across the altlantic pond.

[Pastor-of-Muppets]

If you want to be able to apply effects to a single channel, either put it between one deck and the mixer (in which case you can't use it with the other deck at all) or forget the gemini (sorry, not what you wanted to hear!) I'd recommend keeping the gemini for now, you might find it works fine for you.

The behringer UB802 probably wouldn't be good as a complete replacement for the Gemini, as it only has knobs for the level, no faders. But assuming you had just one mixer with a send/return loop:

put deck 1 into Ch1 of the mixer, deck 2 into Ch2, now you can choose how much of each channel goes to the send/return loop by using the individual send control for each channel. You can send just Ch1, just Ch2, or any mixture of the two. The KP3 will receive that mix, add its thang, and send that back to the Aux Return. The final output of the mixer can be any combo of Ch1, Ch2 and Aux Return.

For total control, some mixers allow you to choose whether the FX send is pre-fade or post-fade, so you can send a channel to the FX loop even if that channel is faded right out. Some also let you cue the Aux Return in your headphones before mixing it back in. I'm a little bit in love with my Ecler NUO3.0

[Pastor-of-Muppets]

Hey, is there an echo in here? (smile). Thanks, m-of-p, I think we are communicating telepathically across the altlantic pond.

Heh - I was just thinking that!

[xmlguy]

Wait, I think I thought of that first! We have a telepathic feedback loop now, uh oh.

[wallstreet]

But assuming you had just one mixer with a send/return loop:
You can send just Ch1, just Ch2, or any mixture of the two. The KP3 will receive that mix, add its thang, and send that back to the Aux Return. The final output of the mixer can be any combo of Ch1, Ch2 and Aux Return.

For total control, some mixers allow you to choose whether the FX send is pre-fade or post-fade, so you can send a channel to the FX loop even if that channel is faded right out. Some also let you cue the Aux Return in your headphones before mixing it back in.

Isn't Aux Send/Return just a mono signal? I believe it is for my Behringer.

[xmlguy]

Better mixers tend to have better features, such as more aux/effects sends/returns and the ability to switch them to prefade/postfade. Better brands tend to have better reliability. When you pay bottom dollar prices, you usually are giving up something, whether you realize it at the time or not. There are exceptions if you are a careful bargain hunter and not merely buying something because it's the cheapest option.

[X-Trade]

But assuming you had just one mixer with a send/return loop:
You can send just Ch1, just Ch2, or any mixture of the two. The KP3 will receive that mix, add its thang, and send that back to the Aux Return. The final output of the mixer can be any combo of Ch1, Ch2 and Aux Return.

For total control, some mixers allow you to choose whether the FX send is pre-fade or post-fade, so you can send a channel to the FX loop even if that channel is faded right out. Some also let you cue the Aux Return in your headphones before mixing it back in.

Isn't Aux Send/Return just a mono signal? I believe it is for my Behringer.

I haven't worked with any mixers that have a stereo FX send bus. They usually have stereo returns though. So you could hook it up for mono send/stereo return.

On my Behringer (a little larger - an 1824FX), and on my Alesis, I connect up my mini-KP in INSERT (Direct) mode to the ALT3/4 bus, and connect that back to a stereo channel (make sure you never route this to the alternate bus!!!!!)

then when you want to send something for FX processing, you simply hit the mute(alt3/4 button. obviously you can't mute things though, have to use the faders.
except on my 1824 there are seperate buttons for main/alternate/solo bus mixes.

This has an additional advantage because some of the effects aren't intended to have any dry signal coming through, for example filter sweeps, distortion, etc (although sometimes I like a 50/50 mix distortion), so using it in insert mode in the configuration I described still leaves you with that functionality.

I did have to set the bus output for the alt 3/4 at -8 or 10dB to stop clipping (at least the mini-KP seems designed for a different input level, the light is always red if I connect it straight to my TR or Radias), and then bring the output up with a +8 or +10dB boost on the return track to bring it back up to mix level.

Of course, you can use an effects return (without the send) if you don't want to use up one of your stereo tracks.


Anyway, that's how I use my mini-KP with my keyboards both live and in the studio.



And, xmlguy, I understand that you get what you pay for, but the clever buyer can get the most features for the lowest price - that's called a bargain. It all depends on what features you need. And many people have a budget that often means they need to work around feature set limitations. And it is these limitations that makes troubleshooting on your own, and providing help and support to others all the more fun!

and, for example, some of the best music ever recorded has been due to technical limitations at the time. not eveyone can afford, nor do they need, top of the range products. especially if those products are beyond their technical ability (for example I would never suggest that a MicroKorg user should have got an OASYS).