Technology and the creative process II

[Charlie]

The original thread started with some quite interesting ideas ... and then somehow trailed off

Well - there was a comment at the beginning, that caught my attention:
"I'd be totally pissed if I ever buy a CD and end up saying: Hey I know this Combi!"

I guess, I would have easily agreed with it, if I wouldn't have been in the midst of doing exactly this.

Those having read my interview at PMM's blogasys might remember, that I like to create a view very raw but different versions of a song, befor I start the actual recording. I use factory combis for this purpose, adjust the tempo, program the pads and there we go. It helps me to develop a better feeling for the final mood and sound of a new song.

But in this case it happened, that the factory combi fitted nearly perfectly my intentions and feelings for what I wanted to create. Of course there were some modifications. I changed the Bass-GE, programmed different scenes - but the basic character is still the one of the factory combi. And therefor I was incredebly fast with recording the playback for the singer.

So, I was happy with my song - and then I have to read this: "I'd be totally pissed ..." Am I a lazy musician? Because I use wellcrafted tools? Am I less creative than others? What about creating the text, the melodie, the harmonies? What about the arrangement? Would it have been a better song, if I would have created my own combi?

These questions keep buzzing through my head since I've read this. And I'd like to know your opinion on it.

PS: for those who'd like to listen to the song please go to http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... dID=802583 and choose "Observe your mind" (what a fitting title for this thread )

[Stephen]

I don't know about a CD, but there was a movie, I think, with a Karma Combi, and that made it to a thread over at KLF, but since it was a "royalty free Combi", it was allowable, and...it was great for the purpose it was used.
I use drum loops a lot, some of them made from my Karma, or TR, and have over a hundred original compositions, half of which are available for download free of charge.
I don't consider myself, or anyone else lazy, or less creative, for using all the tools at their disposal, quite the contrary, I'd rather consider those people resourceful.
Regards,

[Daz]

The combis are there to be used for making music and someone put a lot of effort into them, so it would be daft to spurn them entirely. However if you limit yourself to making music that way exclusively, then you're missing other opportunities for creativity that the machine offers, and that is rather daft too To get the most from any instrument you should take advantage of ALL it's facilities, whether those are presets or opportunities to sculpt your own personal music IMO.

As an owner of the Oasys I've heard music that appeared to be just combis and that didn't grab me so much as something more personal, just because I've heard the combis before. However most of one's audience doesn't have that impediment and will simply hear music and will enjoy it regardless.

I don't use the combi's because very few of them inspire me, which is purely a taste/genre thing, but I use plenty of preset Programs and GE's alongside my own materials. Even if I were to create a piece using entirely my own sounds, I'd still end up using work created by someone else such as multi-samples or even just the instrument itself. Not to mention all the musical rules devised by someone else and so many other intangibles. that I am effectively borrowing. As musicians we stand on the shoulders of giants, many other giants, no matter how creative or individualistic we think we are being.

The most important thing is to end up expressing what you want to express, and expressing that with style ... using whatever tools come to hand.

It's art and not a contest

Daz.

[Daz]

LOL ... I feel guilty because I am not doing this kind of stuff with lightbulbs and home made instruments :

http://www.spectrasonics.net/omnisphere ... small.html

Daz.

[Unknown Sound]

The combis are there to be used for making music and someone put a lot of effort into them, so it would be daft to spurn them entirely. However if you limit yourself to making music that way exclusively, then you're missing other opportunities for creativity that the machine offers, and that is rather daft too To get the most from any instrument you should take advantage of ALL it's facilities, whether those are presets or opportunities to sculpt your own personal music IMO.

As an owner of the Oasys I've heard music that appeared to be just combis and that didn't grab me so much as something more personal, just because I've heard the combis before. However most of one's audience doesn't have that impediment and will simply hear music and will enjoy it regardless.

I don't use the combi's because very few of them inspire me, which is purely a taste/genre thing, but I use plenty of preset Programs and GE's alongside my own materials. Even if I were to create a piece using entirely my own sounds, I'd still end up using work created by someone else such as multi-samples or even just the instrument itself. Not to mention all the musical rules devised by someone else and so many other intangibles. that I am effectively borrowing. As musicians we stand on the shoulders of giants, many other giants, no matter how creative or individualistic we think we are being.

The most important thing is to end up expressing what you want to express, and expressing that with style ... using whatever tools come to hand.

It's art and not a contest

Daz.

+++

On the money DAZ. 100%

Sometimes (esp for us hobbyists who are not full time musicians/comsposers) time is the contraint, and tweaking presests (at times) to get the job done (music out) is a neccesity.

I found that you can spend forever on a single track and it will never be perfect. You have to set a limit on the production process. Note: This doesn't apply to the creative process (for me anyway) as I have mulled over an idea for months.

What I'm trying to say here is that I get ideas for new sounds/tracks almost daily and it's quite overwelming. I only get a small fraction of these out on the keyboard and even less make it to something tangible. Every tool available that helps actually producing something is of benifit, that includes presets.

My 2 cents worth.

-US.

[Kontrol49]

Why do people have Hangs up with Musicians using Presets or ready made sounds???they are there to be utilised,most of the time They are the original source of Inspiration for writing tracks,I would suspect that many Oasys and other Korg combi type sounds have given the basis to an idea rather than the sound be used after the composition is born.I've used many presets,most of which start my Inspiration flowing or give me the idea of what I could do with the sound,I do make my own sounds too,and love to program sounds especially on Analog interface synths,

if the Sound fits the Purpose of the track why does it matter after all the notes never arranged themselves the sound was merely a vessle to project Them!


The Oasys is usually my first port of call for a new track,I'll dial up a preset combi make up some grooves with the Karma and then Jam Away,even with Presets,just altering the drum track or synth part of the GE can give new life to a totally different idea each time you use it,nothing wrong with that,even if I decided to use it on the Final recording

I can spot presets used on some songs,and I could spot easily many other presets used from the Whole Korg back catalogue of workstations,since the Late 80s to the present day from High class recording artists,but they still manage to retain a unique sound of their own..after all the Song is their own,the Sounds were simply a Building block to colour the track.

I think its rather ignorant in todays technological advances to say you'd be disgusted or pissed to hear a sound from one of your Keyboards,or hear someone use a preset to large effect,when they're made in 10s thousands of units you will hear some sounds pop up,even in commercial recordings..

I'd like to see/Hear this original posters Music and see what synths they have in there studio the comment about being Pissed about some people using presets is pathetic,Its not lazy or uncreative,its technology,If they have one Rompler synth that has Memory Banks then there simply a Hypocrite

Music is about emotion,the end listener couldn't give a hoot about the source of sounds so long as they have an emotional connection to it,its only other Musicians and Usually those who have never thought of utilising the sound in a certain way first get pissed by someone else using a sound they know or have..

I wonder also how many people have been inspired to buy a certain synth because a Famous or known artist had used it either stock sounds or sounds they made themselves,Just look at the Amount of Tracks that Used the Famous "M1 Piano"whether it be a Rompler or an Analog synth it was the timbre of the Instrument that persuaded you to buy..






*In any case,its nice as a Synth enthusiast to hear/Spot a few sounds you know on commercial recordings*

[Charlie]

Many thanx for all the feedback and thoughts. It seems to me, that there is a sort of agreement on this issue: use the ready-to-use-tools if you like them AND be creative. I esp. liked Daz's hint at the many other giants we build on (just think about our way to divide an octave - the western world agreed on 12 notes - but we know, that there are many other ways out there ). And another observation I liked a lot is the mentioned "hobbyist-dilemma" (time is the constraint).

Let me give you another analogy: I like doing sport. I used to play a lot of tennis. When I learned it as a child, we had wooden rackets with a sweetspot the sice of fingernail. It was extremly difficult for a 7-year-old boy to hit the ball so that it bounced nicely. 15 years later we had already pretty sophisticated materials and it was so much easier to hit the ball. But I never felt as a "lazy" tennis-player. It would have been stupid not to use the tools at hand. It moved tennis into new dimensions, new tactics, new styles etc. I believe it's quite similar with music and instruments - esp. with electronic instruments.

But still I agree with Daz: once you have such a tool it's a pity, if you use it only as a preset-machine instead of venturing out into new territories and discover new musical land on your own!

[ski]

However most of one's audience doesn't have that impediment and will simply hear music and will enjoy it regardless.

Exactly.

I don't use the combi's because very few of them inspire me,

Except mine, of course...

[Charlie]

@Ski: Just out of curiosity ... did you program the combi I used for "Observe your mind"? (I'm not on the O right now - but I think it was called "Wave of the future" or something like that - see link above for the song)
If so: how does it feel if you hear a song based on your combi? I mean, you might have had something completely different on your mind when you programmed it.

[ski]

@Ski: Just out of curiosity ... did you program the combi I used for "Observe your mind"?

No, that's not one of mine. But even though it's not, I'd like to answer your second question anyway.

How does it feel if you hear a song based on your combi? I mean, you might have had something completely different on your mind when you programmed it.

If someone wrote a song based on one of my Combi's, I'd be nothing short of flattered as well as gratified. How they used it wouldn't matter. Whether they used KARMA or not wouldn't matter. Just that they found it useful or inspiring is all that counts.

When we create Programs and Combis, whether it be for the OASYS or any synth, the hope is that end-users will find them useful and inspiring out-of-the-box without modification. None of the guys who write Programs or Combi's ("sounds") do so with any inherent stipulation that they be used in any particular way. Sure, some sounds are created with a particular genre in mind, and we'd like to hope that musicians will find those sounds useful when working in those styles. But once you own that synth, every sound in there is yours to use as you see fit. There are no rules.

Of course, the OASYS has a ton of real-time and programming parameters available to modify each sound. They're there for you to use (or not use) as well. There are no rules.

Maybe this is the most useful perspective I can offer here... When creating Combi's for the OASYS, Jack Hotop would call me up from time to time and play me some of his Combi's over the phone. Sometimes I'd hear a sound within one of his Combi's that I didn't recognize, as though it was a new program. So I'd ask him, "there's something that goes walla walla walla walla in the bass -- what's that? Never heard that program before." Almost invariably he'd tell me that it was one of my programs, but without a certain IFX, or maybe with SW1 turned on, or whatever. It was always a great feeling for me to hear a new perspective on a Program I created, even within the same machine, just in a different context.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the sounds within the OASYS are yours to use in any way you see fit. There are no rules or restrictions or mandates. And to reiterate the point I made above, the factory sounds were made to be (hopefully) be useful just as they are, while at the same time there are a million options available for you to customize them in any way you like.

[nitecrawler]

Charlie: The song is great as it is. Of course you could change the arrangement, the melody, etc. and it may or may not be better, but that is all conjecture at this point. I would have to hear those changes to form an opinion on its "betterness". Don't sweat it; the song sounds great as it is, to me the listener. I use combi's and programs, sometimes with alterations and sometimes without, and consider them tools to get across a song idea. I don't feel that it is important to create a new instrument or even a new sound every time I want to develope a new song, unless the song's direction requires it. Does that make sense?

Nitecrawler

[Daz]

I don't use the combi's because very few of them inspire me,

Except mine, of course...

It's more of "me thing", I just can't start with something that is already such a complete idea and take it from there. I like (and need) to build things up myself otherwise it doesn't click with me. It's probably a 'control thing'

Daz.

[ski]

I hear ya Daz. I don't know that it's a control thing rather than an "approach thing". FWIW, until recently I would only build up my tracks based on individual programs. But over the past few weeks I made some orchestral Combi's that are serving me well as is. In fact, one of my Combi-based film cues even went "final" with the client, with the addition of only a few extra instruments from other sources. The Combi proved to be a huge time-saver. Rather than building up my track from individual woodwinds, brass, and string patches, I got the idea across in one pass, then embellished with other sounds. I was under a huge deadline, and I don't think I would have been able to get it done were it not for that Combi.

But my plan -- which I've already started on -- is to take my track, break it down into its individual instrument parts, and re-orchestrate it "for real". It'll probably take me a day to flesh out the parts, re-orchestrate it, and assign them to individual instrument sounds. But my original sketch -- played in real time -- took all of about 1/2 hour to write and finish up.

So the Combi proved to be a very useful "tool" in this case.

[Charlie]

@Nitecrawler: thank you for your kind words. And I ensure you, that I had no intention of changing my song. The reason for starting this thread was enlarging (or sharpening?) my view on "using presets".

@Ski: wow - I really enjoyed reading this. Your view makes a lot of sense to me. I used to program (and sell) sounds back in the 80's (D50) and you stirred up some memories I must have forgotten over the years. I wish to thank you and the other sound-developers for the time and passion you put into making the many wonderfull sounds of the Oasys!

I still would love to program some of my own sounds. But with my limited amount of time, I have to choose carefully what I will use it for. And as there are so many great sounds available, it seems best (for me! )to spend the time for composing and producing songs.

[ski]

@Ski: wow - I really enjoyed reading this. Your view makes a lot of sense to me. I used to program (and sell) sounds back in the 80's (D50) and you stirred up some memories I must have forgotten over the years. I wish to thank you and the other sound-developers for the time and passion you put into making the many wonderfull sounds of the Oasys!

Thanks for the kind words! There was no lack of passion when it came to programming the Oasys. Actually, that would be true to say regarding the programming efforts behind any of the synths that Korg has made. At least that's been my experience.