In 2 weeks, my band is playing in the half finals of "The clash of the coverbands", a Dutch competition for... you guessed it! Coverbands!
Earlier this week we had a band coach visit during rehearsals. He didn't like the brass sounds at all! In fact, he literally told me to find different samples if I didn't want to make the sound engineer cry...
I tried a few preset brass sounds, some of the EXs 3 sounds and even some of the Karo unisono and the orchestral library found on this forum. He didn't like any of them!
So, I was wondering if you guys could give me tips where I can find really good brass sounds. It doesn't have to be free, as long as I can impress the band coach!
Congratulations! You just found one of the missing synth engines that the Kronos doesn't have: the physical modeled brass engine. The Korg Prophesy, Z1, EXB-MOSS series had a good physical brass model that sounded very realistic. You got screwed. A 15 year old Korg synth can blow away your Kronos for realistic brass, and there's nothing you can do about it. Loading up different brass samples won't help. That's because what makes brass sound realistic are the articulated sounds that occur before, between, and after the notes you play on the keybed. Korg and other manufacturers have decided that workstation buyers aren't really very interested in having all of the best sounding articulated acoustic instruments, but buyers of arrangers do, so the arrangers get the best articulation technology and the workstations don't (or get it later/slower). So if you want the best sounding brass, look to the Korg PA3X, a Triton Extreme with EXB-MOSS, a Yamaha Tyros 4, PSR-S9xx, a Motif XS/XF (brass inherited from Tyros), or some of the brass modeled softsynths. Spend an hour or two at a local store playing only the brass sounds on these synths compared to the Kronos.
It's kinda like Ricky Martin being sold to women as a hot male pop star, only to find out later that he's gay. You bought a Kronos and you need a PA3X. Hopefully, you're arranger curious, because you may need to become an arranger player.
Last edited by xmlguy on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In addition to xmlguy's suggestions if the Kronos really doesn't cut it for you (although I genuinely recommend you edit the EXs3 sounds and work the Fx too), I would suggest the Jupiter 80. It has all the articulation elements you will ever need.
Last edited by cello on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Are you running mono or stereo? There are three things that BEG to be instereo: acoustic pianos, ensemble strings, ensemble brass. All three come alive in stereo but sound like a mellotron in mono.
Busch.
Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc. http://www.purgatorycreek.com
Also, I've worked a lot with brass/winds with breath controllers and all that for decades. Physically modeling of brass/winds SUCKS when it comes to ensembles. It can cut it as a solo item if done right but the ancient tools of the Yamaha VL-1, Korg Prophecy, etc. are LONG past their prime. VSL (solo and ensemble) and SampleModeling (solo) can yield excellent results.
Busch.
Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc. http://www.purgatorycreek.com
burningbusch wrote:Also, I've worked a lot with brass/winds with breath controllers and all that for decades. Physically modeling of brass/winds SUCKS when it comes to ensembles. It can cut it as a solo item if done right but the ancient tools of the Yamaha VL-1, Korg Prophecy, etc. are LONG past their prime. VSL (solo and ensemble) and SampleModeling (solo) can yield excellent results.
Busch.
Ensembles are definitely harder to do realistically, and for a band competition, pretty much any band with a decent live horn section will trump any keyboardist, no matter how good the synthesis, if only for the stage presence. I'm waiting to see when Korg releases the 10th synth engine for Kronos, or whether it will be retired without a single new one in its lifetime.
If you can sample it from yamaha Arranger series, you'd be satisfied..
Love my kronos 88
Love my yamaha psr s910 as well
Korg Kronos 88, Yamaha PSR s910, Korg C720, Yamaha DTX 520, Focusrite Scarlett 18i6, a pair of Yamaha HS80 in (soon not to be) an unproperly treated room..
I agree with Busch, I own the Extreme with MOSS and while it is ok-ish for some solo instruments (the flute in particular was good) I would NEVER replace one of the Kronos samples ensembles with MOSS.
There are limits on what you can do with samples, but to be honest the Kronos ones aren't all that terrible as workstation brass goes - more likely you're just fighting against the band coach's opinion. He may be used to a real section, or even to the Roland or Yamaha flavor.
I find that as with many sampled instruments, much is in the playing. I tend to use a sforzando section which has a nice attack but brings some movement to the longer notes. Know when to play chords and when to play octaves or single notes. Make sure to pay attention to the phrasing of the line; know when to play staccato and when to play legato. Generally speaking, a horn player pays a lot more attention to the length of a note than a piano player does. Using a volume pedal and learning to use it to bring dynamics to your horn parts also helps.
Band coach - Ahh ha ha ha ha h ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Anyway,
i think if you flick through a few of the combis you should find something close enough to start with, then just adjust to your liking, maybe open the filter up a bit, little bit of effects.. it can be done..
omfg ..Band coach...AAAH HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAA
Ned wrote:Band coach - Ahh ha ha ha ha h ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I mention that band coach in the video.
mathieumaes wrote:The song we're playing that needs brass is a latin song
Until you find some samples, I think this will do the trick. In short - use "f" samples in your oscillators, play in Chord Mode and run the sounds through the Bass Amp. Never mind, just watch THIS.
cello wrote:In addition to xmlguy's suggestions if the Kronos really doesn't cut it for you (although I genuinely recommend you edit the EXs3 sounds and work the Fx too), I would suggest the Jupiter 80. It has all the articulation elements you will ever need.
You can also essentially add the Jupiter 80 sounds to the kronos by getting an Integra-7 module. But getting back to what another post said, that can give you some other very nice solo brass instrument emulations, but ensemble brass is still another matter.
Mike Conway wrote:Never mind, just watch THIS
Great video, Mike. I think it was a good tip that you kind of mentioned in passing, to put some different delay on a layered sound so they are not starting too perfectly in unison. Anything that helps the different "instruments" sounds like they are being played by different players, at slightly different points in time and space and with subtle differences to the technique should help.
Though, not having done much editing on the Kronos at all yet, I have to say that it would not have occurred to me to pick a bass amp model to make things sound brighter! In the real world, playing your board through a bass amp, of course, takes out all the highs, so, without having ever looked at how amp emulations work, it is the opposite of what I would have expected.
I know a little something about brass ensembles, as I played trumpet, Bb cornet, french horn, and baritone in high school and college orchestras and bands, including symphony band and marching band. I can tell you why I think most keyboard brass samples suck. The samples are too good, too consistent, too perfect, and too straight, and in other respects like the attack, legato, vibrato, and modulations (shake, falls, trills, etc.) they are not nearly good enough because you need at least different samples of all of these articulations and have a system that's smart enough to let you use the m naturally at the right points. Real brass has a much wider variation in tone and playing style/technique, even between different musicians on the same instrument, or different instruments with the same musician. Blowing a note on a trumpet is unlike plucking strings, hitting piano keys, playing a reed or wind instrument. It's more variable, and in my experience, not as predictable and accurate to get the perfect note every time. Horns also have more sophisticated note transitions because the valves are not binary on/off switches that instantly cut between notes. They affect the pressure and resonance of the notes as the air and sound is redirected between tubes of different lengths. The valves themselves make noise, which is rarely captured in sampling. Sometimes a good musician will hit a few dead/bad notes before readjusting the lips on mouthpiece position. Small changes in the mouthpiece and lip position can affect the tone, particularly the brightness of the note at different pressures and volume levels. The samples usually don't capture this variation.
This is where physical modeling and sample modeling can make a big difference. Physical modeling can introduce a lot more variance between brass notes, since each note is actually being generated dynamically "on-the-fly" and can be affected by velocity in a more sophisticated way than mere sample-switching, such as having parameters that carry over between notes. Sample switching can be very good though, so long as there are samples with a wide range of variation. If you hit the keys at the same velocity and get the exact same sound every time, that's not a good thing for realistic brass.
The net effect is that mere velocity switching between different samples doesn't cut it for realistic sounding brass. A more sophisticated model of some kind is needed to simulate the natural variations of live horns, or else you'll get the "keyboard brass" sound no matter what because they will sound too perfect and computer like. So go ahead, change up the samples. Get a tone you prefer. But they won't sound realistic unless you have a way to play them in a way that knows how brass needs to be played to sound realistic, which is different than other kinds of acoustic instruments.
I'm a bit irked that Korg has dropped the brass physical modeling that they had with MOSS for Kronos/Oasys, and hasn't at least replaced it with something similar on their flagship workstation, while they are putting the best articulations on the PA arrangers, require musicians to artificially choose between Kronos and the PA3X for reasons that have nothing to do with arranging and one-man-band performances. You are just kidding yourself if you think the Kronos has the best sounds that Korg sells for everything. They have relegated their best articulation capability to the arrangers, and their best synthesis to the Kronos. You can't get the best of both on either one, since Korg (and Yamaha) don't let you have the best articulation technology on the workstations.
Oh, and Mike Conway, damn, sorry to hear about the accident with your Kronos LCD. That sucks. It's painful to see a shattered screen on any nice workstation.
You bought a Kronos and you need a PA3X. Hopefully, you're arranger curious, because you may need to become an arranger player. 
