How to use the editor as a VST Plugin.

SeedyLee · Post by **SeedyLee** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:54 pm

Not withstanding concurrent discussions about the lack of a 64-bit version and general usability issues, I have made a concerted effort to work out how to use the editor as a VST, but I'm having issue after issue.

Hopefully someone with more experience can clarify a few points for me.

I'm running my KRONOS with Local Control Off, and am hence relying on using Midi Echo within my DAW (Studio One 2 Pro). The editor manual states the following:

Important: Any MIDI events intended for the instrument must be recorded to a MIDI track and directed to the
MIDI port that the instrument is connected to. Failure to follow these instructions may result in jittery playback.

Following this advice, I have my MIDI track set to communicate directly with the KRONOS via the MIDI ports. I have the editor loaded, but not assigned to a track. The editor is communicating directly with the KRONOS via its own connection to the MIDI ports irrespective of the ports assigned in the DAW. This is how I interpret the above.

The problem with this approach is this: when the editor is transferring Sysex to the KRONOS, the replies from the KRONOS are duplicated by the DAW as MIDI echo is turned on. This results in the KRONOS receiving twice the Sysex traffic, much lower transfer rates and warning messages on the KRONOS about Sysex receive errors.

Turning off MIDI Thru in the DAW alleviates the problem, but it's hardly a practical solution every time one wants to make an edit using the editor.

Taking a different approach and routing all the MIDI through the editor results in exactly what the manual warns about: jittery playback. In other words, if I set each of my MIDI tracks to use the editor as the MIDI input and output, it resolves the first problem of duplicate Sysex, but makes the KRONOS generally unplayable.

Filtering Sysex in my DAW from being passed through is not an option for two reasons: Firstly, my DAW doesn't have a filter option for MIDI through, secondly, doing so would prevent many of the functions of the KRONOS from working correctly when Local Control is turned off.

What is the solution to this? Has anyone managed to use the editor successfully as a VST and how?

(The fact that we're relying on a 30 year old, 7-bit protocol for controlling something as complex as the KRONOS is pretty indicative of where the hardware market is heading...).

SeedyLee · Post by **SeedyLee** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:29 pm

Also, I've tried changing the global MIDI channel in the KRONS to something different, say channel 16, which can then simply not be used in the DAW for MIDI echo and effectively reserved for SysEx. Unfortunately, due to the fact that the KRONOS uses the global MIDI channel for both programs, combis and sysex, this approach breaks as many issues as it fixes.

As far as I can see there are currently two options available:
- Use the editor with Local Control turned On, no MIDI thru in DAW
- Don't use the editor

midinut · Post by **midinut** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:09 pm

I'm using Cubase 5 FWIW. When I originally got my Kronos, we were still waiting for the Editor. Prior to this I was just simply recording audio tracks from the Kronos. Now, with the Editor installed and working, I add a MIDI track and assign the Kronos 2 from my VST menu. I have not messed with Local On/Off as it appears I don't need to. I have recorded what I played on Kronos and it syncs just fine to all the other tracks either audio or virtual. AND it delivers TOTAL RECALL!!! When I save and close out then reopen the project, it loads exactly the program it's supposed to. What I have not tried yet (but will when I get done typing this) is recording multiple VST instrument tracks using the Kronos. So far I've only recorded single tracks from the Kronos. Basically, I've been testing to make sure the Editor worked. I will try multiple tracks and get back and post my results when I'm finished. For some reason my gut tells me this is going to involve setting up a Combi on the Kronos as Sharp mentioned.

midinut · Post by **midinut** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:58 pm

Okay. I tried it. It won't let you open more than one instance of the VST Editor at a time. So James method is the only way at this point to do it.

James - could you please explain to me how you are using your Combi in your DAW? I tried Adding 4 MIDI tracks as opposed to Audio or VST Instrument tracks and assigned MIDI channels 1 thru 4 just to test this. I set up a Combi with 1=Drums, 2=Bass, 3=Rhodes, & 4=Sax and saved the Combi. When I try to record, it's showing that it IS recording MIDI data I'm just not hearing anything. That's what I have tried so far.

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:17 pm

SeedyLee wrote:
As far as I can see there are currently two options available:
- Use the editor with Local Control turned On, no MIDI thru in DAW
- Don't use the editor

I am using the editor with two DAWS, Logic and Live. Each with a different configuration, Midi thru On and Off.
I am not receiving double (mirror images) of sysex.
If you are setting up a track for Kronos with the correct ports (Keyboard/Sound) and another track with the editor instanciated, you should be good to go. I'm confused when you say in your first post about loading the editor but it's not on a track? I know nothing about Studio One so maybe this is possible in this DAW? Or are you running the editor in standalone besides your DAW? Also and just to be clear, the editor does not send any RTC commands to your DAW that are recordable..

Waveform · Post by **Waveform** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:37 pm

How are you running the plug-in in Cubase 5 midinut?
I tried it earlier today twice, and both times got a nasty crash.

The editor is running fine for me in stand-alone, so I know my connections are OK.

Do you use "add instrument track" by right clicking on the left of the arrange page, or by clicking and selecting in the VST Instruments panel (my method)?

midinut · Post by **midinut** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:49 pm

When you add a track, your choices are:

1) audio (stereo)
2) instrument (VST and you choose from a list of your installed VST's) or
3) MIDI Track.

I'd never tried option #3 before so I did an got the results in my last post, it records MIDI data but I don't hear anything. I created 4 MIDI tracks and changed the channel on each to correspond.

If I choose option #2, I get a choice in my VST list of Kronos, and Kronos v2.
I may try option 2 and open the Kronos Editor and choose my test Combi and see if I get any differen results. I would think this method would be fantastic if you are using the Combi to create a layered or split sound with everything on the same MIDI channel. But what I want more is to use my Kronos within Cubase as a multi-timbral module.

Now you see where I got my name - sometimes MIDI drives me nuts!

Shakil · Post by **Shakil** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:48 pm

SeedyLee,

Don't send the MIDI track directly to KRONOS, send it to the VST plugin only.

The VST plugin is multitimberal, so you can send multiple midi tracks to the plugin at different channels.

Your MIDI instrument is the VST plugin, not the KRONOS itself. That's the whole point of the VSTi. You interact with the KRONOS VSTi plugin, not the KRONOS directly through MIDI.

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:56 pm

midinut wrote:
If I choose option #2, I get a choice in my VST list of Kronos, and Kronos v2.
I may try option 2 and open the Kronos Editor and choose my test Combi and see if I get any differen results. I would think this method would be fantastic if you are using the Combi to create a layered or split sound with everything on the same MIDI channel. But what I want more is to use my Kronos within Cubase as a multi-timbral module.

My understanding is Kronos should be setup on a midi track and all data recorded here.
Edit - Correction : The editor on an instrument track and Kronos V2 selected as the input.
At least this is how it successfully works in Live and Logic for me. It shouldn't be that much different in Cubase, but correctly setting up the tracks is ultimately the key. Sorry I'm not familiar with Cubase procedures.

Qui (QR) mentioned in another thread that he was putting together a tutorial of setting Cubase up for this, but I think he is using it standalone to maintain 64 bit operation in Cubase.

midinut · Post by **midinut** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:55 pm

Thanks for the help Lou. IIRC, when I was using the M3 editor, if you chose the M3 (and it's ensuing editor) for your instrument) it created 16 MIDI tracks that you could then assign however you wanted. It seems they were already assigned to MIDI Channels 1-16. You still had to assign the sounds to each part and record them but it seems like everything else was all set up for you ready to go.

It's been a year or two since I used my M3 with its editor so maybe I'm remembering it wrong - but THAT is what I was looking for and expecting when Korg said VST integration with your DAW for the Kronos. And I love my Kronos. The last thing I want to do is start another slam thread. Just looking for a workaround. And I think James has one if I can just understand how he's doing it.

SeedyLee · Post by **SeedyLee** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:31 am

Shakil wrote:SeedyLee,

Don't send the MIDI track directly to KRONOS, send it to the VST plugin only.

The VST plugin is multitimberal, so you can send multiple midi tracks to the plugin at different channels.

Your MIDI instrument is the VST plugin, not the KRONOS itself. That's the whole point of the VSTi. You interact with the KRONOS VSTi plugin, not the KRONOS directly through MIDI.

This is how it seems to me that it should logically work. However to me this seems to be the opposite of what the editor manual suggests. Also, when I use this approach I get other issues. For example, stuck notes, note delays and generally eratic timing. I also have an issue using this approach where when the editor window is closed (but the plugin is still active) there is no MIDI Thru whastoever, though this might require a bit more testing.

Either way, to me the editor manual is incredibly vague on the whole topic.

lou wrote:I am using the editor with two DAWS, Logic and Live. Each with a different configuration, Midi thru On and Off.
I am not receiving double (mirror images) of sysex.
If you are setting up a track for Kronos with the correct ports (Keyboard/Sound) and another track with the editor instanciated, you should be good to go. I'm confused when you say in your first post about loading the editor but it's not on a track? I know nothing about Studio One so maybe this is possible in this DAW?

In Studio One, an Instrument track and a MIDI track are the same thing. The only difference is whether the input or output device is a MIDI port or a VSTi.

I'm honstly not sure how you're managing to not get duplicate SysEx in Cubase if you have a MIDI track assigned to the KRONOS MIDI ports whilst having the VST on an instrument track, unless you have Cubase set to filter SysEx on MIDI Thry (which I seem to recall is an option enabled by default in Cubase)?

If you wouldn't mind trying something for me: Try adding a MIDI track without the editor loaded, and assign it to the KRONOS in/out ports with Midi thru enabled. Turn of Local Control on the KRONOS. Do the hardware faders still affect the on-screen faders in Tone Control mode?

SeedyLee · Post by **SeedyLee** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:35 am

By the way, I'm not bashing the editor - which I actually quite like in standalone mode. I'm bashing the 30 year old MIDI standard as it applies to modern, complex synthesizers and DAW workflows.

I had massive issues getting my simple MS2000BR to work properly in Studio One, until I realised that it always sends control surface changes directly to the internal tone module regardless of what the "Local Control" option is set to, which is different to just about every other KORG synth!

SeedyLee · Post by **SeedyLee** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:46 am

The other issue I'm having with using the VST as the destination device for MIDI tracks is that the sustain pedal doesn't work at all. The plugin VST is showing that it's receiving the CCs for the sustain pedal, but it's not outputting them back to the KRONOS. This is verified in the MIDI monitor of the plugin itself, so it must be something specific to the VST, rather than the host.

This is the main reason I can't use the VST as the destination for MIDI tracks, and have to assign the MIDI track to output directly to the KRONOS MIDI port.

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:17 pm

SeedyLee,

"In a previous post I made a correction as to the input of the editor track."

I'm not using Cubase, I use Logic and Live.

In Logic I have Patch Thru On and Local Off.
I have one midi track for Kronos with the Ports set to Keyboard and Sound.
I have an Instrument track with the editor loaded and Kronos V2 set up as the Input. Record is Not Enabled and Volume is set to 0.

I record all data to the Kronos midi track as per the Manual.
I can record to the remaining 15 tracks also and control faders etc. on the editor screen which interact with the Kronos Interface display, (unfortunately don't get recorded unless you use the Kronos Control Surface.)

SeedyLee · Post by **SeedyLee** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Lou wrote:SeedyLee,

"In a previous post I made a correction as to the input of the editor track."

I'm not using Cubase, I use Logic and Live.

In Logic I have Patch Thru On and Local Off.
I have one midi track for Kronos with the Ports set to Keyboard and Sound.
I have an Instrument track with the editor loaded and Kronos V2 set up as the Input. Record is Not Enabled and Volume is set to 0.

I record all data to the Kronos midi track as per the Manual.
I can record to the remaining 15 tracks also and control faders etc. on the editor screen which interact with the Kronos Interface display.

Sorry, my mistake Lou. I must have misread that you were using Cubase.

Thanks for the info