User Bank confusion with OS 2.0.2

[NuSkoolTone]

Want to know if I'm the only one experiencing this:

With all the new libraries everyone's sharing, I decided to try some out. Though I don't have enough room on the SSD (only 1.4 GB free according to Media info in disk mode), So I decided to copy some stuff over to my USB drive and delete it off the SSD to make that room. ODD things are happening!

Example:

I had a folder called "Karo" on the SSD for all the Karo libraries that I had interest in. I had the following in there:

-EXs50 KARO Symphonic Library
-EXs51 KARO Unison Orchestra
-EXs52 KARO Chamber Strings
-EXs54 KARO Granular Atmospheres
-EXs56 KARO Dance Composer
-EXs59 KARO Stage Piano
-EXs61 KARO Pedal Bass
-EXs63 KARO Sophisticated Grooves II

I copied these to my USB stick and the WHOLE thing takes up 14.3 MB???? Surely that's not right.

I delete it off the SSD using the delete command in utility and it still shows I've only got 1.4 GB free. NO WAY that's right either!
I've rebooted the Kronos in case it needed to "refresh" and no change. In fact no matter WHAT I delete, the space calculations never change!

Also oddly before I did this delete process I loaded up a few Karo libraries. Though they play fine, in red I see the "Samples not loaded" message up above. Look in the oscillators and everything's fine. Nothing in red. So something's not right there either.

Any idea what's going on????

[Sharp]

Any idea what's going on????

Yep... this is perfectly normal.

When you install a EXs the sample data is encrypted, and hidden. So if you delete that KARO folder or move it, all your doing is deleting / moving the files your able to see, and not the encrypted / hidden sample files.

They are stored in a different location altogether you cannot see.

The proper procedure for deleting this data is to uninstall the EXs.

Regards
Sharp.

[Melodialworks Music]

Sharp - thanks for the response. Useful information.

NuSkoolTone - please change the thread subject to something like "Procedure for deleting encrypted EX sample data"

I almost didn't read the thread, thinking, here we go with another complaint thread! Yet, I have actually ended up bookmarking the information.

[NuSkoolTone]

Any idea what's going on????

Yep... this is perfectly normal.

When you install a EXs the sample data is encrypted, and hidden. So if you delete that KARO folder or move it, all your doing is deleting / moving the files your able to see, and not the encrypted / hidden sample files.

They are stored in a different location altogether you cannot see.

The proper procedure for deleting this data is to uninstall the EXs.

Regards
Sharp.

Thanks sharp. I just happened to try from the global and uninstall EXs, sure enough I got HD space back. I guess when I did the copy I was only getting the reference files. So that explains everything with Karo and disk space. In order to load them again, I'd have to re-download the demos and re-install. I guess when it installs it converts it somehow and you can't just copy and paste stuff.

IMO it would be nice if there was a locked "Encrypted" directory so we had an idea what was going on. I'm not used to having parts of the FS hidden from me. That doesn't make it wrong, just sayin!

Though what I still don't understand is with the non Karo stuff not freeing up space, and why "samples not loaded" shows up on the demo? I'll play around with it more and see what's up. When done I'll come back, post my findings and rename the thread as appropriate.

Thanks!

[Sharp]

Also oddly before I did this delete process I loaded up a few Karo libraries. Though they play fine, in red I see the "Samples not loaded" message up above. Look in the oscillators and everything's fine. Nothing in red. So something's not right there either.

Any idea what's going on????

This can be normal too. If the drum kit that is assigned to the sound does not have it's samples loaded, you can get this error.

Though what I still don't understand is with the non Karo stuff not freeing up space

Can you provide more information so I can get a better understating ?

Regards
Sharp.

[Steve Pavao]

Also oddly before I did this delete process I loaded up a few Karo libraries. Though they play fine, in red I see the "Samples not loaded" message up above. Look in the oscillators and everything's fine. Nothing in red. So something's not right there either.

Any idea what's going on????

This can be normal too. If the drum kit that is assigned to the sound does not have it's samples loaded, you can get this error.

Note that on the Program P0:Play Main tab, in the drop-down menu in the upper-right hand corner, there is a menu item called "Show Samples Not Loaded". Give that a try.

- Steve Pavao
Korg R&D

[NuSkoolTone]

Also oddly before I did this delete process I loaded up a few Karo libraries. Though they play fine, in red I see the "Samples not loaded" message up above. Look in the oscillators and everything's fine. Nothing in red. So something's not right there either.

Any idea what's going on????

This can be normal too. If the drum kit that is assigned to the sound does not have it's samples loaded, you can get this error.

Note that on the Program P0:Play Main tab, in the drop-down menu in the upper-right hand corner, there is a menu item called "Show Samples Not Loaded". Give that a try.

- Steve Pavao
Korg R&D

Steve, thank you for the excellent suggestion.

My apologies I haven't been able to clarify and validate the rest. Busy gigging weekend!

[NuSkoolTone]

What I'm experiencing right now is what appears to be cross-linked files. I'm trying to re-organize my KSC files and use a more modular approach. In doing this I'm finding at least one issue.

Example: I have my own folder with it's contents for a wedding/party band I'm in called "Cloud Nyne". This has my own custom samples, pcg etc... I am also working with one of the user sample sets shared for a CP-80 in a separate folder.

When trying to save these as user banks, I notice that one overwrites the other in some respect.

So here is my procedure:
-I load the original non user bank KSC file and do clear all.
-I then save the new KSC file as the same file overwriting the old one.
-A new User_KSC file is created
-Do a remap and everything fine.

Here's the rub:
I do this for the CP-80 KSC file and it saves fine. But I go to save the Cloud Nyne KSC and here's what happens:

It saves the file as the new Cloud Nyne_UserBank.KSC, BUT if you open it up the 2nd folder down the tree says "Smp:CP-80" (!) Open the next subfolder and the CORRECT samples for Cloud Nyne ARE there, but the sample sizes seem off. They are split into Multisamples and also Drumsamples. Multisamples has the name of the multisamples. In Drumsamples all the individual sample files from the Multisamples are there plus the drum samples. Now this part might be normal, I don't know.

Mind you these two banks are saved in completely DIFFERENT folders on the SSD!

If I play sounds that use the Cloud Nyne KSC bank, I get "Samples not loaded" and no sounds.

Now looking in global mode under sample manage,the only bank available is "Smp: CP-80" and the sounds for that bank play fine. OK.

So check it out: I go to load the Cloud Nyne KSC to play those sounds, and if I change the .KSC allocation to "append" I get the error below in RED: "HDD:INTERNAL HD: NEW CLOUD NYNE/Cloud_Nyne_UserBank.KSC is already loaded into Sampling Mode. To load it as a User Sample Bank, set .KSC Allocation to Clear Sampling Mode Data."

But it's NOT loaded!

Hmmm. Ok hit cancel, go look in global mode under Sample Manage and look in the bank drop down, and sure enough it's not there.

Maybe there's a problem when overwriting the same file? I did it over and saved a file called "Cloud Nyne Streaming.KSC" to be sure. I look at the CP-80 KSC file again and open up one level down its tree. Sure enough, it now says: "Smp: Cloud Nyne Streaming" (Again!).

I didn't say anything about this file when saving yet it affected it.
I open another sublevel downand there's all the CP-80 files similar to the way Cloud Nyne above was laid out, but with NO cloud nyne files (As expected)!

Go to load the CP-80 file and if I go to append it gives me the same warning that the file is already loaded and it's not. Check the CP-80 program and it has errors and all the waves are now mapped to the Cloud Nyne Streaming bank. No how many times I go through the above procedure, this is the end result with these files.

Now here is where it gets WEIRD! So now if I delete the just prior made Cloud Nyne files, the Cp-80 files go BACK to as expected in the subfolders.

So something is DEFINITELY wrong. Perhaps I'm missing something in procedure? Either way this behavior shouldn't happen.

The only workaround I have is to save one, then save it to a USB stick, delete it off the SSD. Then do the other one, then copy the first BACK to the SSD and they appear to play nice after a little manual editing and remapping.

So aside from some frustration, it's manageable.

[Oldretro]

What I'm experiencing right now is what appears to be cross-linked files. I'm trying to re-organize my KSC files and use a more modular approach. In doing this I'm finding at least one issue.

Example: I have my own folder with it's contents for a wedding/party band I'm in called "Cloud Nyne". This has my own custom samples, pcg etc... I am also working with one of the user sample sets shared for a CP-80 in a separate folder.

When trying to save these as user banks, I notice that one overwrites the other in some respect.

So here is my procedure:
-I load the original non user bank KSC file and do clear all.
-I then save the new KSC file as the same file overwriting the old one.
-A new User_KSC file is created
-Do a remap and everything fine.

Here's the rub:
I do this for the CP-80 KSC file and it saves fine. But I go to save the Cloud Nyne KSC and here's what happens:

It saves the file as the new Cloud Nyne_UserBank.KSC, BUT if you open it up the 2nd folder down the tree says "Smp:CP-80" (!) Open the next subfolder and the CORRECT samples for Cloud Nyne ARE there, but the sample sizes seem off. They are split into Multisamples and also Drumsamples. Multisamples has the name of the multisamples. In Drumsamples all the individual sample files from the Multisamples are there plus the drum samples. Now this part might be normal, I don't know.

Mind you these two banks are saved in completely DIFFERENT folders on the SSD!

If I play sounds that use the Cloud Nyne KSC bank, I get "Samples not loaded" and no sounds.

Now looking in global mode under sample manage,the only bank available is "Smp: CP-80" and the sounds for that bank play fine. OK.

So check it out: I go to load the Cloud Nyne KSC to play those sounds, and if I change the .KSC allocation to "append" I get the error below in RED: "HDD:INTERNAL HD: NEW CLOUD NYNE/Cloud_Nyne_UserBank.KSC is already loaded into Sampling Mode. To load it as a User Sample Bank, set .KSC Allocation to Clear Sampling Mode Data."

But it's NOT loaded!

Hmmm. Ok hit cancel, go look in global mode under Sample Manage and look in the bank drop down, and sure enough it's not there.

Maybe there's a problem when overwriting the same file? I did it over and saved a file called "Cloud Nyne Streaming.KSC" to be sure. I look at the CP-80 KSC file again and open up one level down its tree. Sure enough, it now says: "Smp: Cloud Nyne Streaming" (Again!).

I didn't say anything about this file when saving yet it affected it.
I open another sublevel downand there's all the CP-80 files similar to the way Cloud Nyne above was laid out, but with NO cloud nyne files (As expected)!

Go to load the CP-80 file and if I go to append it gives me the same warning that the file is already loaded and it's not. Check the CP-80 program and it has errors and all the waves are now mapped to the Cloud Nyne Streaming bank. No how many times I go through the above procedure, this is the end result with these files.

Now here is where it gets WEIRD! So now if I delete the just prior made Cloud Nyne files, the Cp-80 files go BACK to as expected in the subfolders.

So something is DEFINITELY wrong. Perhaps I'm missing something in procedure? Either way this behavior shouldn't happen.

The only workaround I have is to save one, then save it to a USB stick, delete it off the SSD. Then do the other one, then copy the first BACK to the SSD and they appear to play nice after a little manual editing and remapping.

So aside from some frustration, it's manageable.

I experienced something similar when creating programs from my own custom multisamples. After creating and saving a new program from my own multisample in sampling mode, the samples are loaded. If I then go back to programs with other custom multisamples, it says "Samples not loaded", while a few seconds ago they were loaded! I than have to edit each of the programs with my custom multisamples, and reselect the folder (Kronos itself selected a none existing folder) and multisample where I saved all my own multisamples. I created an autoload .KSC for that, and at startup of the Kronos it sometimes loads the samples, and sometimes it doesn't (even though I see that my custom .KSC is getting loaded). If it *is* loaded correctly, I can switch to all other programs with my custom multisamples, and then I don't get the "Samples not loaded" error. What also seems wrong, is that my custom multisamples are not streaming but are loaded in RAM, even though I selected to load in virtual memory. Maybe we are doing something wrong? I find the disk file management of the Kronos quite complicated. All in all I can manage in the studio for now, but it's not something I want to struggle with when I have a gig.

[NuSkoolTone]

So fast forward a bit and I am still having problems with saving user banks.

IS there a true procedure? The manual/pg doesn't seem to outline specifics as to a process that would be "wrong".

Example: Can I overwrite the .ksc with what I'm saving therefore writing a new user bank and not using double the space for the new .KSC?

When I do, I keep getting cross linked files as described above. Even if I try to save the new one to a usb stick, take it out, and then save them individually writing to the stick each time and taking it back out. Somehow the crosslinking seems to happen on the USB stick too! So obviously I'm doing something "Wrong". I'd assume there'd be many more complaints if this was happening to everyone.

Could we get some descriptive information on how the pointers for the files work etc..? This is really making it hard for me to move forward!

[danatkorg]

What I'm experiencing right now is what appears to be cross-linked files. I'm trying to re-organize my KSC files and use a more modular approach. In doing this I'm finding at least one issue.

Example: I have my own folder with it's contents for a wedding/party band I'm in called "Cloud Nyne". This has my own custom samples, pcg etc... I am also working with one of the user sample sets shared for a CP-80 in a separate folder.

Do you have the CP-80 sample data in both the CP-80 KSC and the Cloud Nyne KSC?

I wouldn't suggest working that way. Have the samples in one place or another - not both. Your Cloud Nyne KSC can both contain its own samples if necessary, and also link to other EXs or User Sample Banks.

It sounds to me like the User Sample Bank IDs are the same for the two files. See User Sample Bank IDs in the Operation Guide's section on User Sample Banks.

[NuSkoolTone]

What I'm experiencing right now is what appears to be cross-linked files. I'm trying to re-organize my KSC files and use a more modular approach. In doing this I'm finding at least one issue.

Example: I have my own folder with it's contents for a wedding/party band I'm in called "Cloud Nyne". This has my own custom samples, pcg etc... I am also working with one of the user sample sets shared for a CP-80 in a separate folder.

Do you have the CP-80 sample data in both the CP-80 KSC and the Cloud Nyne KSC?

I wouldn't suggest working that way. Have the samples in one place or another - not both. Your Cloud Nyne KSC can both contain its own samples if necessary, and also link to other EXs or User Sample Banks.

It sounds to me like the User Sample Bank IDs are the same for the two files. See User Sample Bank IDs in the Operation Guide's section on User Sample Banks.

To my understanding they are separate. I've been trying to embrace the modular approach and have been re-doing my general use KSCs so they are very specific and to minimize duplication. However, I will double check this to make sure.

Out of curiosity, what is the limit on how many .ksc files you can assign in auto-load?

Thanks.

P.S. Steve from R&D has contacted me, so I will work with him and see if we can find resolution for me. That said, I appreciate and encourage your feedback. Thanks again.

[danatkorg]

So fast forward a bit and I am still having problems with saving user banks.

IS there a true procedure?

Example: Can I overwrite the .ksc with what I'm saving therefore writing a new user bank and not using double the space for the new .KSC?

What are you saving? The more specific you can be, the more helpful I can be. Are you editing samples and multisamples in Sampling Mode, and saving the results? Or, are you just saving the current state of the samples loaded into the machine?

Based on what you've written so far, it sounds like you may have been loading the samples into Sampling Mode, like you would have had to do before KRONOS version 2. I'd do it this way instead:

1. Load CP-80_UserBank.KSC
2. Load Cloud Nyne_UserBank.KSC
Now, the samples are all loaded as User Sample Banks.
3. Save a new KSC as Cloud Nyne Gig.KSC. This will contain links to the two User Sample Banks. Samples won't be duplicated on disk, and you'll be able to play the samples using VMT in order to minimize load time and memory usage.

You would only need to load the non-UserBank KSCs when you need to edit the sample or multisample data in Sampling Mode.

Could we get some descriptive information on how the pointers for the files work etc..? This is really making it hard for me to move forward!

Here's the info from the manual. Let me know what's not described here, and I'll add it!

* * *

User Sample Bank IDs

Under the hood, the KRONOS keeps track of User Sample Banks by a special ID saved in the KSC file. This lets the system find and recognize the User Sample Bank if you change the name or location on the disk, and even if it’s used on another KRONOS altogether.
An ID is initially assigned when the samples are created in Sampling Mode. This ID stays with the data as long as you load and save using KSCs—even if you save to a different location, or with a different name. It also stays with the data regardless of whether it’s loaded as a User Sample Bank, or loaded into Sampling Mode for editing.
It will not be preserved, however, if you load or save individual Samples or Multisamples.
If there are multiple files on internal disks with the same ID, the one with the most recent modification date one will be used. KSCs on USB storage devices are ignored for this purpose.
When you look at the bank name in Programs, Drum Kits, and Wave Sequences, you’ll see the full file path of the associated KSC file.

What triggers a change to the User Sample Bank ID?

Sampling Mode is given a new ID under the following circumstances:
• At system startup
• If the Clear Sampling Mode Data option is used when loading a KSC which does not include Sampling Mode data.
• When the Global Sample Management page’s Unload All command is used for Sampling Mode Data
• When the Global KSC Auto Load page’s Do Auto‐ load Now command is used (unless one of the auto‐ loaded files includes Sampling Mode Data, as described below)
• On save, if Force new User Sample Bank ID is selected (see “Force new User Sample Bank ID,” below)

Sampling Mode assumes the ID of an existing KSC under the following circumstances:
• When a KSC with Sampling Mode data is loaded using the Clear Sampling Mode Data or Clear All options, or when Sampling Mode has not been used since startup
• Similar to the above, but when loading the entire folder of Sampling Mode data when browsing within a KSC
Sampling Mode keeps its current ID under the following circumstances:
• If Sampling Mode has been used since startup, and a KSC is loaded into Sampling Mode with allocation set to Append
• When individual Samples and/or Multisamples are loaded

Force new User Sample Bank ID

This option is available in the Save Sampling Data dialog, but not in the Save All dialog. It should be used only in special cases.
For instance, you might use Force new User Sample Bank ID if you have loaded a User Sample Bank, edited it substantially, and wish to save the result as a totally new User Sample Bank. After doing so, you’ll also need to use the Remap MS/Sample Bank References menu command to assign Programs, Wave Sequences, or Drum Kits to use the new bank instead of the old one.

* * *

[danatkorg]

Out of curiosity, what is the limit on how many .ksc files you can assign in auto-load?

There is no practical limit.

P.S. Steve from R&D has contacted me,

Yes, I work with Steve.

Best regards,

Dan

[NuSkoolTone]

You guys rock! As soon as I get opportunity (Maybe tonight? Wedding and club gig this weekend so perhaps after), I will try this stuff out and report back. Thanks again.