Creating sounds

marcus3 · Post by **marcus3** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:42 pm

Hi im new to useing Osc. And filters lol.
I been seeing people creating sounds on m50 but im not sure were to start lol Do i use prog. combi.? I really just need some help on diging in my m50 and creating new sounds.

thanks

marcus3 · Post by **marcus3** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:11 pm

let people know im trying recreat some sounds from arp, mini moog, prophet. hopeing it possible

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:26 am

marcus3

Sometimes the simple sounds are the hardest to reproduce.

Here's one way to get started.

Find a lead sound (program) you like. Then on the oscillator page, substitute different ROM wave samples. Notice how the sounds change and what elements remain the same. Are there any that you like well enough to save?

You've cited some classic synths as inspirations worthy of being reproduced. How much o you know about the classic ADSR envelopes, and about amplitude moduation, insert and master effects? Thes e will all come into play and you will see them in the manual. If these terms are not familiar to you, then you have some work ahead of you -- you may not even know what questions to ask for a while.

That will come.

In the meantime you might want to look up some tutorials from back issues of Keyboard (keyboardmag.com) or SoundOnSound magazine for tips on synthesis generally and the M50 in particular. Search under master class, tutorial, synthesis, tricks and tips, etc.

BB

marcus3 · Post by **marcus3** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:45 am

so i find sound on programs mode save it as user program?

I just read on it ADSR
*Attack time is the time taken for initial run-up of level from nil to peak, beginning when the key is first pressed.
*Decay time is the time taken for the subsequent run down from the attack level to the designated sustain level.
*Sustain level is the level during the main sequence of the sound's duration, until the key is released.
*Release time is the time taken for the level to decay from the sustain level to zero after the key is released lol

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:57 pm

m3 -

Right on all those.

These are a big part of the classic analog synthesis. They provide reference points and method for thinking about sound over a period of time. These envelopes can refer to volume, pitch, timbre (bright or dark sound as a function of filter settings) and other parameters.

ANALOG = (in this case) an electronic "mirror" of a natural phenomenon; an analogous sound. You can model many natural sounds using these parameters - brass, strings, woodwinds, etc. Some signature sounds, "Jump" by Van Halen, or "Lucky Man" by ELP, start out as imitative brass or woodwind patches, but evolved to have their own character.

Example - Lets look at brass instruments and volume. They have a loud hard start (spit!); attack would be close to zero (time), and amplitude (loudness) close to maximum at the attack point. After the initial attack (decay) and in a fairly short interval the tone settles at a lower volume, say 90% of max. During the sustain phase it does not lose any significant volume (-0 to -5%), but when the key is lifted (breath stops) the sound cuts off quickly (volume goes to zero).

So the Amplitude (loudness) ADSR for a Brass patch would be something like:

Attack Time: 1 Attack Vol: 127 (max)
Decay Time: 4 Decay Vol: 115
Sustain Time: 127 (sounds for as long as key is held), Sustain Vol: 110
Release Time: 1 Release Vol: 2

There are similar "rules" for other instruments - too many to list in a post, but you (I hope) begin to get the idea.

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Every synth uses a different scheme for describing and manipulating the sounds - this is called the synth's architecture. What you're doing when you program is "describe", using numbers and the structure provided, the way a sound should evolve.

Obviously, some synths and architectures are better for some sounds than others, otherwise we wouldn't have much to talk about here.

Hope this gets you started.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.

BB

ozy · Post by **ozy** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:44 pm

I recomemnd that you learn something about subtractive synthesis (how sound is generated by synthesizers by filtering waves generated by oscillators, etc).

The specifc application of those principles in m50 maybe different than on a minimoog or on a radias,

but the basic principles are the same.

There are two VER FUNNY readers that I always recommend to beginners:

look on google for the following two manuals:

a) "fundamentals of music technology: the ARP 2600" by Samuel Ecoff.

It is a complete and VERY SIMPLE expalanation of WHAT every module in a synthesizer is, and what it can do, disguised as a ARP2600 manual

b) "access virus tutorial" by howard scarr.

Both are FREE,

both are very well written

both go from very simple sounds to complex architectures,

the "arp 2600" is very classic and straightforward, with big pictures explaining concepts [it's a "semimodular synth for dummies" book]

the other is based on multitimbral, complex modern synth architectures (the access virus series), so it contains elements [non-lpf filters, complex envelopes, etc] which will help you with the m50.

They contain examples, patches, the works.

once you've got a clear idea of what a synth is,

start from the preset patches on the m50 e start tweaking them.

But doing it in a "blind" fashior on the m50 won't take you very far, since it's not a "grab the knob" synth.

Oh, by the way: RTF-m50-M of course will help as well, but it is a reference guide, a manual,

not a task- oriented tutorial ("how do I get screaming sounds?"). The two others are.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:26 pm

billbaker wrote:m3 -
ANALOG = (in this case) an electronic "mirror" of a natural phenomenon; an analogous sound. You can model many natural sounds using these parameters - brass, strings, woodwinds, etc. Some signature sounds, "Jump" by Van Halen, or "Lucky Man" by ELP, start out as imitative brass or woodwind patches, but evolved to have their own character.

Analog in this case represents the adjective meaning, not the noun meaning. In analog synthesis, the data (electronic signal) is a data value (voltage) on a continuous scale (voltage range) with an infinite set of values within the range. Virtual analog is a digital representation of the design of these synths, which don't really have data on a continous and infinite scale, but are usually close enough, depending on the accuracy of the algorithms and the D/A converters to reproduce a similar result. The question of how close VAs are to real analog is subject to debate and personal opinion, and I'm not about to debate this issue with anyone who prefers true analog synths, since I have no intention of trying to convince them otherwise. VAs are good enough for me, and I've used many of the best analog synths, but I can fully appreciate that others might disagree and make a different choice.

The M50 is more of a hybrid than virtual analog. It's based on sample synthesis starting with a sampled waveform and applying many kinds of modulations, but not everything that most VAs can do by starting with single cycle waveforms (some sampled, some algorithmic). For example, most VAs can do cross modulation between oscillators (including ring mod), and some frequency modulation, that most sample synthesis hybrids don't do. VAs also usually have more advanced modulation matrix options (virtual patches). A lot of common sounds don't need these modulations, so a sample synthesis hybrid can usually do these sound just fine. But they can't do the sounds that rely on these modulations, other than using samples of synths that do (within limitations). The kind of frequency modulation that VAs typically do is quite a bit different from FM synths like the DX7 and virtual FM synths like FM8, which are build on a design of a matrix of FM function operators.

marcus3 · Post by **marcus3** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:57 pm

ok so i learn bout ADSR, Oscillator, and synths more
a synth is an electronic instrument capable of producing sounds by generating electrical signals of different frequencies.

So now dat i got this knowledge lol. What the 1st step
i do on korg m50 prog.?

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:22 pm

The basic signal flow is Oscillators >> Mixer >> Filters >> Amplifier >> Effects

Then envelopes (keyboard event ADSR), low frequency oscillators and controls (pitch, mod wheel) can modulate the signal in the path above.

So a basic sound would be:

Saw Wave OSC1 + Saw Wave OSC2 (slightly detuned from OSC1) >> OSC1 50% + OSC2 50% >> Low Pass Filter >> Amplifier >> Effects

With the following modulations
Pitch Wheel -> pitch of OSC1 & OSC2
Mod Wheel -> LFO modulation of pitch of OSC1 & OSC2
Keyboard Envelope ADSR -> Amplifier
Effect 1 - Chorus
Effect 2 - Delay
Effect 3 - Reverb

Arpeggiator trigger or Gate of Amp in the pattern x-x-xxx-

This will give a basic trance supersaw sound

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:27 pm

Read my first post again.

It's a very specific place to start, but YOU have to start. I'm sorry I can't visit and turn knobs or adjust parameters for you; limitation of the medium. I have 5th grade guitar students who are dumbfounded by my inability to pour my brains into their heads - "I bought a guitar so I'm a guitar player, right?". Tuning, fingering, chords, scales, major, minor... might as well be speaking Martian.

I tell them to go home and practice - I'm afraid that that is the best advice I can give you here, too.

I've given you one excellent (IMHO) method to start digging in and explore. Ozy's given you a couple of excellent written tutorial titles. And xml's pointed you at some of the various methods that are to some extent part of the m50's history if not it's direct ancestry.

That may have to do for now. We have to speak the same language before we can be more helpful to you.

But this is a user forum - so get in there and start using then ask more questions.

Luck,

BB

marcus3 · Post by **marcus3** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:08 am

that all fine i dont want be spoon feed lol

but the problem im haveing is finding good site with arp moog cs 80 audio files. So i can listen with my ears so i can adjust sounds on my keyboard.
I'm sure i can mimik or come close to it by just listening with my ears?

Yhe reason im asking is cause i dont have these instruments lol
and youtube not all that great.

Appreciate all the tips

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:54 am

m3 -

For sonic references, google moog player -- see wikipedia entry "list of moog players" - you may also get a list of classic synth recordings / discography for moog sounds.

Same for Arp, Jupiter, etc.

Avoid yourtube - sound quality mostly sucks.

Classic synth players - Emerson, Wakeman, etc. is also a place to look. Discography's may include instrument lists (thank you OCD community everywhere).

BB

ozy · Post by **ozy** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:12 pm

marcus3 wrote:that all fine i dont want be spoon feed lol

then start from BOOKS.

It's the quickest way to self-sustaining (as opposed to spoon-fed) competence.

Books+direct experience = good.

Hasty snippets = changing your setuop each time you change band. Or at every namm, whichever happens more often.

If a commonly used synth like the virus has a 200 pages tutorial,

and a ultra-simple workstation like the m3 has a 1200 pages reference guide,

do you expect learning the basics by 5-lines tips on a forum?

Well, maybe you do expect it, but you're not gonna get it.

If you don't grasp CONCEPTS, learning DETAILS won't help you a lot.
Especially because "experts" on forums can be very confusing.

Let's start from mistakes like "analogue synthesis" and "a synthesizers generates sounds from electric signals".

There's no such thing as "analogue synthesis".

the osc-filter-amp chaing descrives SUBTRACTIVE synthesis, not "analogue" synthesis. It can be performed by a analogue device (minimoog), or by a digital sample-based one (m50), or by a digital analogue-modeling one (radias exb).

"Analogue" is one of the possibile physical forms of a circuitry.

The hammond is analogue but not subtractive.

the m50 is subrtractive but not analogue.

Can you learn programming the m50 from the manual of a subtractive, analogue, synth? yes you can, because the synthesis architecture is similar.

marcus3 · Post by **marcus3** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:52 am

ok i check all that out on wiki but no recordings. unless i got youtube.

ok thnx i look at some books or online.

Also dose anyone know what PCG file korg m50 read.
When i went to convert the files to PCG it came up with list of PCG for triton. Dose m50 read same file of one the tritons?

im wanting covert some sounds for my m50.

right now im useing awave studio. any better software?

I did lots and lots of looking on the web came up short. so any tips be helpful

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:03 am

Awave studio is an audio editing program. You can't do anything directly with that audio (recordings/samples) on your M50, besides listen to them and figure out how you might be able to synthesize a similar sound. None of those files can be "converted" to the M50. You bought a ROMpler. The audio/samples are in Read Only Memory and thus can't be changed. You would need an M3, Triton/TR/TrEx or something that has RAM to allow you to load samples in order to do that. For example, if that audio contains a clip of Martin Luther King Jr. saying "I have a dream", then your dream will become a nightmare, because you have no chance of synthesizing it on the M50. If the audio is an "ambulance siren", then you can synthesize something that sounds similar, if you learn synthesis, but how close it sounds will depend as much on your skill as anything else.