Hello from the Netherlands!

rainy-taxi · Post by **rainy-taxi** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:35 am

Hi All,

I'm already posting on the forum but it might be an idea to introduce myself here. I'm Santi, 22 years old and from the Netherlands. I'm keyboardist in a Genesis tribute band called We can't dance (http://www.wecantdance.nl) and I own some Korg gear (Wavestation EX, Wavestation SR, N5EX and M1R).

I always liked Korg a lot. Although they re-use their patches and sounds a lot, they are easy to program, sound good and they make some fantastic instruments.

Cheers !
Santi

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:36 am

Welcome!

kara · Post by **kara** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:39 pm

Welcome Santi

From where in the Netherlands are you ?

k

rainy-taxi · Post by **rainy-taxi** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:05 pm

Hi Kara,

I'm from Roosendaal/Rotterdam

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:29 pm

Hey Santi. Welcome to the forum.

I'm trying to set up a Genesis tribute band with my kids, with me as grandpa-tony-banks-wannabe jajajaja

I have a request for you, only if you find it doesn't violate any rights or bothers you in any way.

Do you happen to have a list of Patch names and Genesis songs which I could use?

What I want is this: I'm trying to set up my combis for each song, for example:
Follow You Follow Me have three patches
- Left hand organ
- Right hand sawtooth for the chorus and lead accompainment
- Right hand sine for the solo

Now, I want to do the same with many other songs we like to play, but is really hard to go and create the combis browsing through the entire sound banks.
You use wavestations and an M1, and I use an M50, but as you just said, Korg sounds are very similar from model to model, I would like to have a list of "most used sound patches" by Tony Banks, so I can narrow down my search when creating the combis.

Many thanks in advance for your help.

Cheers

rainy-taxi · Post by **rainy-taxi** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:08 pm

if you can tell me what songs you will be playing then I can make suggestions.

I already posted the list with patches for the wavestation twice here and that's all korg tony used. I'll dig them up for you.

My main source for sound is in fact the Roland Fantom XR which is maxed with sample ram. I have around 400 mb of custom prepared samples loaded up in the fantom which contains around 90% of all tony banks' sounds.

Tony did program most of his sounds on his own which means that these can't be find at all, unless you get hold of his actual instruments (or if you have good sound design skills and good knowledge of sounds and synthesizers in general). It's since he has the synclavier that he uses stock sounds (but still modifies them to his liking). Stock sounds where used from the Synclavier, DX7, Emu Emulator, Ensoniq VFX, Wavestation, Roland JD800, VK1000, K1000, MK80 (as his work with Genesis is concerned).

Im not really familiar with CAS so I can't comment on those songs.

As I actually said before, give me a list with songs and I'll make comments of it. Splittings and which hand you will use for playing certain parts is pretty much up to you. I'll stick to Tony's actual way a lot but slimmed the gear down to three keyboards (instead of 4) and make use of some clever midi processing (but, everything is played live except the drummachine parts of course. No cheatings here).
To be honest, I don't split as much and try to stick with one sound for one keyboard for most of the stuff. I make different performance programs if a song needs it (domino and hbts have 3 different combo/performance setups for example).

And to chime in on the Follow You Follow Me song. The lead sound is all the same during the whole song. Depending on the tour you listen to the sound is faded in with a volume pedal (done on the and then there where three, invisible touch and turn it on again tours) or with the special envelope generator from the Arp Quadra (duke and abacan tours–what you hear on three sides live).

But I should note that I always work out his live setups, not the studio versions. This is because of a couple of reasons:
- I have much more insight in what he does live then on the studio albums (bootlegs reveal so much more then the studio versions or even official live releases)
- Studio versions have more layers and also overdubs of parts that are not played live (because that's simply not possible without cheating)
- I always liked his live sound much more then his studio sounds as it shows the real power of his rig—in fact I should note that I enjoy Genesis much more as a live band, as they just play so unbelievable well and tight live.
- We perform the material live, so it makes sense actually to stick with the live versions instead of album versions. That's the acceptable way to play the songs, as genesis did it themselves for around 40 years.

I always recommend doing the same for anyone who plans to perform genesis' music (or any other band for that matter). Stick to the live versions, that works.

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:31 pm

Wow, thanks. What a TON of info for a single post jeje

I couldn't agree more, Santi. Live versions are a million years better than studio versions. For example, again with FYFM, the studio version just fades to silence, now in Live Over Europe, the ending is so great!!!

As for the sound themselves, I like to try to emulate every sound using just the M50 banks tweaked to taste. As Tony said in a Korg interview, "I try to reproduce the sound of vintage synths with just the Oasys. They don't sound exactly the same, but the general idea is there. I don't like to tweak the sounds too much, just a basic reverb and portamento when is needed. I'm also using the Wavestation and Roland keyboards as controllers for the Oasys. There are just a couple of sounds that comes out of the Wavestation, but more than 90% of the sounds you heare are from the Oasys."

Is not an exact copy of the interview, but the general idea is that he is in fact trying to resemble old vintage sounds using the Oasys alone and no sampling involved. That means, that they might not be an exact copy, but I could be able to do (almost) the same with the M50. The M50 doesn't have sampling, so that is out of the question for me. So I'm sticking with what I can get form it.

As for the songs I wan to play, I'll try to give you a preliminary list:

- Abacab
- Illegal Alien
- Suppers Ready
- Cinema Show
- Mad Man Moon
- The 3 sides live medley or the Seconds Out medley
- Follow You Follow Me
- Turn it On Again
- Domino
- Los Endos (might be inside a medley)

I'd love to perform the Colony of Sleeppermen, but is way way too complicated for me. Maybe in a couple of years

That's it for starters. I want to narrow down to maybe 4 or 5 we can play very well, and practice the others so we can have variety.

Again, Santi, many many thanks for your help. Your experience is invaluable.

Cheers

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:34 pm

Oh, I almost forgot. I just ordered a Yamaha KX49 controller to hook it up to the M50 and spread the sound better, so I can count on those extra 49 keys very soon.

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:56 pm

Found it

rainy-taxi wrote: Ooo's (no son of mine, tell me why and used as a layer on other songs probably)
Warm strings (fading lights first section strings, used as a layer with the Ooo's on no son of mine, used live on firth of fifth)
WHEEL Vox (driving the last spike, used live for second home by the sea)
Octave strings (fading lights last section strings)
Minilead (fading lights, program three versions. One with all oscilators set to poly, one that's default—all oscilators set to legato— and a third one with no wavesequencing. The no wavesequencing one was used live in the old medley)
Whisper voices (hold on my heart, dreaming while you sleep—although it is layered with JD800 there)

rainy-taxi · Post by **rainy-taxi** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:58 pm

mocando wrote: I couldn't agree more, Santi. Live versions are a million years better than studio versions. For example, again with FYFM, the studio version just fades to silence, now in Live Over Europe, the ending is so great!!!

Indeed, I think that the carpet crawlers is also another song that sounds wonderful on the latest tour (but I'm generally dissapointed with tony's sound. It's too sterile and I can hear that they used a digidesign console to mix everything. It sounds hyped and blunt. A real shame I think).

The interview you are referring to can be found on the korg UK website. He also stated that he rented the oasys for Live Earth because his own one was setup in manchester (where they had to play that night). Loading up the sounds worked indeed, but he only used it's internal sounds for duke/turn it on again. Land of confusion was still emu proteus and the tx7, invisilble touch used the JD990 and proteus too, though I think he uses the oasys for the middle 8 bit (which he has to redo every tour. hell of a job…)

mocando wrote: That means, that they might not be an exact copy, but I could be able to do (almost) the same with the M50. The M50 doesn't have sampling, so that is out of the question for me. So I'm sticking with what I can get form it.

You can use any kind of sound you like of course. Portamento and filter settings are important, but one thing to keep in mind; some sounds might be difficult to do as the filters in the oasys might not give you the sound and control you are looking for. I have the same problem with the fantom filters. The first part of domino uses a synthstring with filter sweep from the P10. I can't get that nice sweep out of my fantom. It's filters are horrible.

mocando wrote: As for the songs I wan to play, I'll try to give you a preliminary list:

- Abacab
- Illegal Alien
- Suppers Ready
- Cinema Show
- Mad Man Moon
- The 3 sides live medley or the Seconds Out medley
- Follow You Follow Me
- Turn it On Again
- Domino
- Los Endos (might be inside a medley)

For abacab:
Try a good synth brass (like many of the 80ies synth brasses), split the sound so that you can process one with a bit of distortion and the other clean. Mix that. Then some small delay/reverb on it and tweak portamento where needed. The chorusing is pretty important as it gives its fatty sound.

You can make some kind of clone for the arp quadra's fat sound by taking two oscilators, set them so sawtooth and detune them really slightly. Use a polyphony of 1 for both oscilators. Set one to high note priority, the other to low note priority (which is how the arp quadra and the oddysee handle duo playing)
Then use a third oscilator with sawtooth and some filtering for the poly section. Mix that, some portamento (very short!!!!!!) and there you are.

Illegal alien:
See if there are any good clones of the CP70 on the oasys for the piano
You can sample the intro from the record (even tony did that on the mama tour…)
Try the abacab sound, without distortion for the middle part
Try a steeldrum sound for the middle section (original one is from the synclavier) - a bit of delay and reverb is important on that one.
Haven;t heard the track in a long time but I think the parts under the steeldrum sound are just a general prophet 10 string with very slow phaser (like on the intro of in the cage). But could be a filtersweep too.

Suppers Ready:
RMI Electra piano (I think samples can be found for free on the internet) for lovers leap
Use some organ patches (I lost my drawbar setting notes sadly). The only thing I remember is that apocalypse had the V setting (which is middle drawbar to 8, the two next to them 7, then 6 and so on. It should resemble the character V). I don't think tony used percussion on it.
Apocalypse uses mellotron strings -> spring reverb/tape delay is the key for a nice sound
As sure as eggs are eggs and the willow farm part use the mellotron brass (not trough a leslie!!!)
How dare I be so beautiful uses rmi organ mode (again, samples are on the net I think) with phaser
Part 3 uses a simple lead from the arp pro soloist (not sure which preset, long time ago since I used the pro soloist sounds, in fact long time ago since I played any 70ies material from that era). After the solo, the arpeggiating thing is continued on the organ, not the pro soloist! You might try some reverb or delay on the organ for that part.
Part two is organ and some percussion on it.

Cinema show:
I always stick to the medley part. Though I heard the 1976 version after a log period this morning (as I also heard fly on a windshield and white mountain. Very good songs from that tour).
Its organ, mellotron and a lot of pro soloist sounds. Although I could do the version from the 70ies, I would stick to the arp quadra sound.
The quadra sound used is the same as on follow you follow me. The important (and difficult) aspect of that sound is the amp envelope which is not the standard ADSR one but more one that resembles a brass envelope (sFz). So it should start with the sound sustaining at a level, then fade out, fade in, hold to a louder sustain level and very short release.

Of course the phasing is important in the sound (see abacab for a good recipe)

Mad man moon,
I know not many tributes doing that one. I haven;t tried myself either but I remember some pro soloist sounds (more orchestral stuff like on one for the vine), mellotron strings (mixed with the roland RS202 stringsynth) and a lot of acoustic piano!
Again, mellotron strings only benefit from one thing: GOOD TAPE DELAY/SPRING REVERB. It makes them sound marvellous (listen to salmacis on three sides live for example!)

Three sides live medley:
The quadra recipe for cinema show is already given above. Edit the envelope (switch to a traditional lead sound envelope) and you have the sound for in the cage and slipperman.
Slipperman has a special portamento setting and I think tony switched on the bass section of the quadra for that one (as I dont hear that much portamento on those notes).

Use a synthstring (made up of 2 detuned saws) with good phaser for the intro.
There is an article in Sound on sound magazine that shows how you can recreate the organ from that period. It shows all settings for the P10. Only thing you need is a self oscilating filter and enough oscilators.
You can use that same synthstring for the small parts in in the cage where it is needed.

Use phaser on the organ for the middle section (where they slow down, the "outside the cage" part). During the verses, it's only chorus.

Follow you follow me:
See cinema show for the lead sound. Use any organ you like, as long as you keep the phaser to a minimum. The trick is to blend the mix of dry and phased signal (and chorused signal). Tony didn't use heavy settings much.

Turn it on again:
I only use piano with a very soft synth string. I have the Emulator brass section setup but I sparely use it (I don;t like it that much).
Use an old piano, no hi fidelity steinway samples. The one I use is from the roland RD1000/MKS20. It's very 80ies, synthesized and it works wonderful. The soft synth string is only there for the longer sustains in the middle sections.
Some small delay/chorus and reverb on the piano and of you go.
If you check out www.wecantdance.nl - turn it on again is featured in the audio box on the left (on the home page).

Domino:
A very heavy song soundwise. I'll comment on that one later (its midnight here). Our version can be found on youtube (see our website again. Its posted there)

Los Endos:
Now we did a medley with in that quiet earth, though that didn;t work out well.

Use an organ patch thats not too heavy. Tony used percussion on it the last tour (and that sounded like CRAP imho). I suggest using the arp quadra sound again as its versatile and fat.
Use a nice mellotron choir or a big synthetic choir for the end (delay, reverb for the latter one, maybe add some chorus too. tapedelay/spring reverb if you use mellotron choir).

I personally use the sounds from the invisible touch tour (which are two synclavier synth leads; one is like a pulse lead, the other one is the same one that is used for second home by the sea but with more chorus, delay and reverb on it- prophet 10 organ like on abacab with some reverb and chorus/phaser, emulator choir drenched in chorus and delay)
An older version of our rendition is on youtube (see our website). I'm using the latter synclavier lead only (as I didnt had the pulse lead setup at that time) with two effect settings (heavier effects on the second part, more dry on the first part).

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:28 am

I'm gonna have to print out this post jejeje. Thanks a TON brother.

rainy-taxi · Post by **rainy-taxi** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:38 am

mocando wrote:I'm gonna have to print out this post jejeje. Thanks a TON brother.

No problem

I think I'd better stick all information in one "tony banks" topic as all information is then at one source.

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:47 pm

One small problem with Live performances. There are no music sheets available. Maybe is not that important for single songs, but for medleys is a nightmare

Or there are

rainy-taxi · Post by **rainy-taxi** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:29 pm

the live versions usually don't differ much from the notes that are played on the studio albums. So any good sheetmusic book can be used.

I have a lot of Genesis books here (the lamb, a trick of the tail, wind and wuthering, duke, way we walk vol 1, way we walk vol 2).

I figure other stuff out by ear or basic chord schemes. You can get those books for almost next to nothing on ebay. Most of the genesis albums have complete sheetmusic books available. Though not all are accurate so still try to figure out as much as possible by ear. Doing that will give you better insight to the music and you will remember it faster (really, I recommend memorizing every song you'll learn from now on in case you didn't do that already). I play everything from memory (except very complex jazz scheme's).

If there is something you are unsure of, let me know.
You might find these helpful for the older material. But not everything is on there (as it is an archived version of a site that was taken down a few years ago).

http://web.archive.org/web/200107022243 ... glist.html

Most songs and solos are very accurate…

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:47 pm

Thanks Santi. Great stuff.

You are so right. I play everything by ear. Primarily because my sheet reading is very very rusty, and secondly because is much faster to memorize the tunes and play. Sometimes I still guess some notes, but it gets better with practice.

BTW, I've been hearing Genesis on a daily basis for more than 30 years now, so I really know every sone very closely. Solos is what is hardest for me.

The Follow You Follow Me solo was just a couple of hours of practice and Bum. It was ready. Now I can play it with my eyes closed

What we do to practice is load a MIDI file into the sequencer and simply turn off the instruments we don't have at home. For example, my son plays the drums and I play the keyboard, so I shut down those trackes and leave bass and guitar on. As well as the lead voice. That way we can practice and don't get lost, as well as to be on the beat.
Sadly, I haven't been unable to find good MIDI files. Sometimes I must reconfigure all instruments. And don't talk about live performances. They are unexistent.

Cheers