M50 Acoustic Guitars...not great?

YamahaForums · Post by **YamahaForums** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:22 pm

Just been playing around with my M50...don't get much time these days...anyway, wondered what others opinions of the acoustic guitars were?. For one thing, there's not many, 6 in total and none are very convincing, in fact I would go as far as to wonder why Korg bothered at all. There's no articulation on the nylon guitars, no velocity switching, nothing that would add to the realism.

I'm beginning to wonder if I have made a mistake in choosing the M50. It does a lot of things well but, I don't know, it just seems to be lacking in certain sound departments.

What do you think ?

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:13 pm

Since Korg is doing the articulations on the M3 via Karma, which isn't built into the M50, then you shouldn't expect articulations. You should be able to trigger the articulations from a computer using the $199 KarmaM50 software. That makes more similar to the Yamaha Mega voices instead of SuperArticulation, using Yami terminology, except that it requires a computer. If you really wanted good live acoustics, why didn't you get the S900? You should know better, with the YamahaForums sig and all, right?

YamahaForums · Post by **YamahaForums** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:32 pm

Why didn't I get the S900 ? Because it was another £200 which I didn't have and even if I did, I wouldn't particularly want to spend that much money on an arranger keyboard.

Surely there shouldn't be a need for Karma just to give some life to the acoustic guitars? Even the Yamaha MM6 at half the price has more realistic acoustic guitars. Just a shame it is lacking in so many other areas.

Sure, guitars are probably not the top of the the list when most keyboard players go looking for a new keyboard but, I would have hoped that by now, Korg..who are so brilliant in many other area's, would have nailed the acoustic guitar thing by now?

Still, I guess it's a price vs features thing. At the price I paid, £769 I suppose it's not bad, not sure I'll keep it but I'll give it a few more months as see how I feel then.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:49 pm

Yes, price vs. features. I can see why Korg let Karma remain as a selling point for the M3.

To get live articulations, you need software that adds a layer of behavior to trigger them at the right time, and with Korg, that's done with Karma. Perhaps you could find a used M3-M module instead, if you want Karma built-in?

By the way, the acoustics were why I bought my s900, as I could overlook the arranger part, and I considered it a bargain to be getting it for less than half the price of the Tyros. But I can understand your reasons. I just love the SuperArticulation voices on it.

FifthElement · Post by **FifthElement** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:42 pm

Agreed the acoustics aren't the best ..... but the electrics, particularly the overdriven ones - wow!.

I've been using them in the band recently and our sound guy can't tell the difference between the keys and the guitar player! - never known that to happen before!

YamahaForums · Post by **YamahaForums** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:23 pm

FifthElement wrote:Agreed the acoustics aren't the best ..... but the electrics, particularly the overdriven ones - wow!.

I've been using them in the band recently and our sound guy can't tell the difference between the keys and the guitar player! - never known that to happen before!

Yes I would definitely agree with that. Just been playing around with them myself. Top notch

StudioMan · Post by **StudioMan** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:35 am

Hey guys! How's it hangin?

I have to disagree with you guys!

Thru my Reference Monitors (I haven't heard them thru live gear), Acoustic guitars really sound almost real. It the Electrics that are WAY off (IMO).
I did that "Hurt" by 9 inch nails, it sounded almost better than a real acoustic guitar (in my studio, never hear it live)..

I've been trying to put together an elec. Guitar (something semi close to a DSL Marshall, with a humbucker), I can't find anything that sounds almost real on any of my live riggings.. In my studio, they sound almost half-way decent, but far from good so-far. But live,, sounds fake (or maybe I'm trying to ask to much from a synth).

I have a Behringer 1010 midi pedal board I'd LOVE to have setup to play manually during a few leads.. I have the pedal ready to go, but a tone is the problem.

Which electrics did you mix together to get something that sounds decent?

I'm (I should say, we) VERY interested in finding a good distortion/electric guitar..

Thanks in advance for any in-sight you can give me!

Mike

YamahaForums · Post by **YamahaForums** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:25 am

Well acoustic guitar is my main instrument. Been playing for over 25 years and the nylon acoustics on the M50 are in no way close to a real nylon acoustic. Yamaha and Roland have it spot on but for some reason Korg just never get's it right. The electrics are far closer to a real electric guitar.

However, this is all personal opinion. What sounds dull and lifeless to one person might sound alive and vibrant to someone else. I guess it's what keeps the world interesting

Before anyone asks why I don't just use a real acoustic guitar, it's because I can play a lot faster on the keyboard than I can on a real guitar, in particular complicated Spanish guitar and flamenco.

FifthElement · Post by **FifthElement** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:08 pm

StudioMan wrote:Hey guys! How's it hangin?

I have to disagree with you guys!

Thru my Reference Monitors (I haven't heard them thru live gear), Acoustic guitars really sound almost real. It the Electrics that are WAY off (IMO).
I did that "Hurt" by 9 inch nails, it sounded almost better than a real acoustic guitar (in my studio, never hear it live)..

I've been trying to put together an elec. Guitar (something semi close to a DSL Marshall, with a humbucker), I can't find anything that sounds almost real on any of my live riggings.. In my studio, they sound almost half-way decent, but far from good so-far. But live,, sounds fake (or maybe I'm trying to ask to much from a synth).

I have a Behringer 1010 midi pedal board I'd LOVE to have setup to play manually during a few leads.. I have the pedal ready to go, but a tone is the problem.

Which electrics did you mix together to get something that sounds decent?

I'm (I should say, we) VERY interested in finding a good distortion/electric guitar..

Thanks in advance for any in-sight you can give me!

Mike

Mike,
What are you playing through live? You should almost be able to match monitors if you are running stereo to a decent, clean PA.

I never "mix" patches, just use a program - combis always degrade sounds for live play IMO - particularly on the M50 I notice.

My favorites atm are:

Elec Guitar + Twin
Boutique Lead Guitar
Vintage Tremolo Guitar
Austin Guy (from Karma-Lab site user collection)
Crunch Elec GUITAR

I have to say, with guitar sounds, I am mostly only playing rhythm lower down on the keyboard (as I'm trying to do vocals as well) and they don't sound so good in the higher registers as always. I don't solo guitar on the M50.

btw, why not do the Johnny Cash version of "Hurt" - then you can do it on piano!

Paul

RichF · Post by **RichF** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:10 pm

Hi all,

I just wanted to point out a few of my favorite guitar programs. There IS lots of articulation in there, and remember that so much of it is in the controls!

A013- Nylon Guitar 2- Play a lower key very hard, and you get a string slide on keyoff

C028- A.Guitar Dynamic Pick- Fret buzz with heavy velocity in lower register

C029- Steel Ac Guitar- Glissando on heavy velocity

All three of those have palm muting on JS-Y, and the knobs are controlling phasers, chorus, envelope mod, and all kinds of other goodies.

As for the electrics, I've always been mesmerized by C055- Screaming Tube Guitar- Killer amp/cabinet modeling in the FX, crazy feedback on JS-Y.

Xenomorph · Post by **Xenomorph** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:17 pm

RichF wrote:Hi all,

I just wanted to point out a few of my favorite guitar programs. There IS lots of articulation in there, and remember that so much of it is in the controls!

A013- Nylon Guitar 2- Play a lower key very hard, and you get a string slide on keyoff

C028- A.Guitar Dynamic Pick- Fret buzz with heavy velocity in lower register

C029- Steel Ac Guitar- Glissando on heavy velocity

All three of those have palm muting on JS-Y, and the knobs are controlling phasers, chorus, envelope mod, and all kinds of other goodies.

As for the electrics, I've always been mesmerized by C055- Screaming Tube Guitar- Killer amp/cabinet modeling in the FX, crazy feedback on JS-Y.

Not to derail but is this THE Richard in a lot of the videos? Well I'll be damned

I need a good nylon for an upcoming song, thanks for the nudge in the right direction.

RichF · Post by **RichF** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:28 pm

Yep, that's me.

Glad I could nudge.

YamahaForums · Post by **YamahaForums** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:23 pm

Well I tried that A013 and I just laughed out loud. You hit the key HARD...very hard! and then get what I can only describe as a delayed and very quiet squeak. Sorry but as a guitarist I find that completely unrealistic. Where's the velocity switching, string bends, slides and vibrato? Yamaha and Roland do it very well, why not Korg?

I have to keep reminding myself about the price point of the M50 so I guess your never going to get everything for this price. Actually it's not Korg's fault, it's mine. Should have taken a bit more time to think about what I wanted and perhaps waited and got a bit more cash together to buy a M3,Roland G or Yamaha XS. Ah well...will have to live with it for now or maybe if time permits I may be able to do something with the sounds myself.

Run · Post by **Run** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:54 pm

I'm using the M50 with my synth midi guitar and there's a huge difference playing guitar patches this way than with the keyboard, no difference playing single notes but strumming the strings sounds a lot more real.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:16 pm

Run wrote:I'm using the M50 with my synth midi guitar and there's a huge difference playing guitar patches this way than with the keyboard, no difference playing single notes but strumming the strings sounds a lot more real.

You're completely right. The result depends a lot on how you play the samples. You can sample individual guitar strings sounds with the highest quality, yet still get a very unrealististic sounding guitar because those samples aren't being played back in a realistic way. Your technique of using a midi guitar is a good way, probably the best if you play guitar well. But you can also get realistic guitar using the keyboard, if you learn how to play the keys in the style of guitar. Strumming can be very realistic using arpeggio phrases, instead of a continuous arp. That's why Karma is so important for guitar realism, even when using the same samples.

For higher realism, special articulations like string & fret noise, occasional buzzes & dead notes, bars and slides, and guitar body thumps add back the natural sounds that have been removed by sampling only the string notes. Karma can do that. Yamaha's Super Articulation and Expanded articulation do it too. Either way, if you want realistic sounding guitar from a sampler/rompler keyboard, you either need to play a midi guitar or use a more realistic way of playing the samples.