hey everybody,
I just got a kp3 a few days ago, and am having *serious* difficulty with Auto-BPM and its affect on sample playback.
I've tried varying the input levels, from a whisper to a scream, both on my mixer (DJM600) and using the input volume knobs, to no avail.
(kept an eye on the peak light too, from pure green thru solid red and lots of attempts in-between)
I've tried both breakbeats and straight beats (house/trance/etc.), same issue remains.
No matter what I try, the samples drift off the beat.
And forget about it if you cut the input signal and bring it back in: It completely loses the bpm and trashes any loops already playing. Completely unusable in a live performance, which is a shame. I was expecting it to at the very least keep the samples synced over a *steady* bpm.
Is this driving anybody else crazy?
Does anyone know if we can get firmware updates?
darian
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my setup: 2 x 1200MKII, 1 x DJM600, 1 x KP3 (maybe not for long)
kp3 auto bpm woes
Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever
yup, same problem
I'm having real problems with bpm sync too. I'm trying to get the KP3 to analyse the incoming bpm from my decks and then send out a midi clock to my computer running ableton.
Basically, the auto-analyse never seems to rest on a specific bpm, so I tend to just tap the beat in, which isn't entirely accurate. Change the bpm of the record, or pull it back a bit and I'm screwed.
But I'm then having trouble getting my computer and decks to play in phase. The 'align' function doesn't seem to do anything.
This was the main reason I bought the unit, so I'm a little disappointed. If anyone's managed to do this successfully, I'd love to hear from them. Else I'm off to Ebay.
Basically, the auto-analyse never seems to rest on a specific bpm, so I tend to just tap the beat in, which isn't entirely accurate. Change the bpm of the record, or pull it back a bit and I'm screwed.
But I'm then having trouble getting my computer and decks to play in phase. The 'align' function doesn't seem to do anything.
This was the main reason I bought the unit, so I'm a little disappointed. If anyone's managed to do this successfully, I'd love to hear from them. Else I'm off to Ebay.
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decrepitude
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Have you ever used Auto BPM on any device before? It's quite the imperfect algorithm.
By the very nature of how it works, tempo is always going to drift slightly no matter what.
The clock signal transmitted from the KP3 is going to wander and Live is going to glitch trying to adjust tempo accordingly. It's a cool idea....in theory.
Tapping the beat in is probably your best bet. But as you've already found out - it ain't that easy. It takes practice. I'll keep mentioning this as these issues come up.
See this thread for confirmation on using the "align" feature.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=21472
By the very nature of how it works, tempo is always going to drift slightly no matter what.
The clock signal transmitted from the KP3 is going to wander and Live is going to glitch trying to adjust tempo accordingly. It's a cool idea....in theory.
Tapping the beat in is probably your best bet. But as you've already found out - it ain't that easy. It takes practice. I'll keep mentioning this as these issues come up.
See this thread for confirmation on using the "align" feature.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=21472
Yes I have. The auto-bpm on my pioneer djm600 is dead-on, every time. I can even drift my pitch up/down and it keeps up. (and, in turn, so does the playing sample loop)
Now, I realize that the kp3 is a less-expensive device than my djm600, but the auto-bpm implementation seems broken to me; especially the way Korg decided to lock the samples to the 1 beat.
Now, I realize that the kp3 is a less-expensive device than my djm600, but the auto-bpm implementation seems broken to me; especially the way Korg decided to lock the samples to the 1 beat.
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decrepitude
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Wow. I need to check out that mixer! 
Well then, Pioneer's auto bpm algo is apparently superior. But these are the sort of things that separate manufacturer's from each other - they certainly aren't sharing technology that would give them competitive advantage.
With that said, the way I understand it any auto bpm algorithm is going to attempt to read incoming transients and is constantly calculating an average bpm from the source material.
When you say "dead on, every time" I see where you're coming from, but certainly any ambient washes or non-percussive material is not going to be read accurately by ANY autobpm function, so "dead on, every time" is a stretch.
Granted, I would imagine you have used the same beats to do an A to B comparison between the DJM600 and the KP3, yes? I'd be very interested in the results you get. Perhaps document this test thoroughly before we pound on Korg. And I will get really squeaky with them if we can absolutely determine -quantifiably so- that the auto bpm function is flawed.
Believe me - I have my ways.
But one has to pick battles carefully in these sort of situations.
Well then, Pioneer's auto bpm algo is apparently superior. But these are the sort of things that separate manufacturer's from each other - they certainly aren't sharing technology that would give them competitive advantage.
With that said, the way I understand it any auto bpm algorithm is going to attempt to read incoming transients and is constantly calculating an average bpm from the source material.
When you say "dead on, every time" I see where you're coming from, but certainly any ambient washes or non-percussive material is not going to be read accurately by ANY autobpm function, so "dead on, every time" is a stretch.
Granted, I would imagine you have used the same beats to do an A to B comparison between the DJM600 and the KP3, yes? I'd be very interested in the results you get. Perhaps document this test thoroughly before we pound on Korg. And I will get really squeaky with them if we can absolutely determine -quantifiably so- that the auto bpm function is flawed.
Believe me - I have my ways.
But one has to pick battles carefully in these sort of situations.
Yeah, the djm600 seriously rocks. Very fast bpm acquisition, usually locked on by the end of the second measure. (breakbeats too)
Don't get me wrong, I understand the natural limitations of any auto-bpm implementation. When I say, "dead on, every time," I'm speaking of consistent, reproducible bpm lock when using the same source audio. Nothing tricky, just reliable behavior.
I don't feel like I have that with my kp3. Reliable behavior that is.
Here's a rundown of my test:
1. start audio.
technics mk2 1200, quartz lock, steady dots
simple house - steady, strong, clean kick drum - 4 beats/measure - no competing sounds
2. check kp3 level
input volume turned down till no red/clip
have tried other variations before this test as well
3. hit auto-bpm on kp3, allow to stablilze, check bpm
djm600 reports bpm between: 137.6-137.9
kp3 stabilizes at: 137.2
4. align kp3 on beat one
green light syncs well with first beat
5. record sample
select 4 beat duration, carefully time sample start
6. assess recording
at this point it is playing in sync, but is a *bit* too short as bpm is fractionally off
this will show up after ten or more iterations, but this is another issue.
7. hit auto-bpm
immediately the kp3 bpm shoots up to 151.5.
This throws off the 1 beat and creates a bad train wreck.
The source audio never changed in speed or level.
The kp3 bpm then bounces between 137.2-138.2.
A second try later jumped to 157 then settled to 91!
I've verified that my audio configuration isolates the kp3 sample playback from the input signal, so theres no chance of kp3 feedback causing this.
in another earlier test using breakbeats:
kp3 detected bpm range 132.1-133.9 finally settling on 132.1-132.4
djm600 reads as 133.3, steady
If anyone feels like trying this out, please lmk if you experience something similar.
Maybe mine just got dropped in shipping?
--darian
Don't get me wrong, I understand the natural limitations of any auto-bpm implementation. When I say, "dead on, every time," I'm speaking of consistent, reproducible bpm lock when using the same source audio. Nothing tricky, just reliable behavior.
I don't feel like I have that with my kp3. Reliable behavior that is.
Here's a rundown of my test:
1. start audio.
technics mk2 1200, quartz lock, steady dots
simple house - steady, strong, clean kick drum - 4 beats/measure - no competing sounds
2. check kp3 level
input volume turned down till no red/clip
have tried other variations before this test as well
3. hit auto-bpm on kp3, allow to stablilze, check bpm
djm600 reports bpm between: 137.6-137.9
kp3 stabilizes at: 137.2
4. align kp3 on beat one
green light syncs well with first beat
5. record sample
select 4 beat duration, carefully time sample start
6. assess recording
at this point it is playing in sync, but is a *bit* too short as bpm is fractionally off
this will show up after ten or more iterations, but this is another issue.
7. hit auto-bpm
immediately the kp3 bpm shoots up to 151.5.
This throws off the 1 beat and creates a bad train wreck.
The source audio never changed in speed or level.
The kp3 bpm then bounces between 137.2-138.2.
A second try later jumped to 157 then settled to 91!
I've verified that my audio configuration isolates the kp3 sample playback from the input signal, so theres no chance of kp3 feedback causing this.
in another earlier test using breakbeats:
kp3 detected bpm range 132.1-133.9 finally settling on 132.1-132.4
djm600 reads as 133.3, steady
If anyone feels like trying this out, please lmk if you experience something similar.
Maybe mine just got dropped in shipping?
--darian
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decrepitude
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my home setup
Code: Select all
here's my home setup:
1 x DJM600 (4 channel mixer)
1 x 1200MK2 on channel 2
1 x 1200MK2 on channel 3
1 x KP3 input from DJM600 sends, output to channel 4
then I choose the channel to send via the effects knob
and control the kp3 output via channel 4 fader to isolate when recording master channel.
(I disconnected the kp3 output during testing, just to make sure there was no feedback)
I just gave auto bpm a try for the first time and I would have to describe it as twitchy. If your main use of the KP3 is to get a sequencer into sync with audio then I don't thnk it's going to work out.
I didn't bother to do any sampling with my experiment. I put a CD into my Denon DNS-1000 and it reported 110BPM. The song had a really straightforward kick pattern and not much else. Once I turned on the auto BPM I watched the KP3 jump from 109.8 up to 111.7.
I tried another CD at 120 BPM. The KP3 seemd to like this one a bit better and did manage to stay on 120 for extended periods, but it did jump up to 120.4 and dip to 195.5.
Then I conducted a third experiment by accident. My denon was in continuous mode so the next song started which was 132 BPM. The auto bpm function got really confused. It hung out at 120 for a while and then dropped to 118.1. I turned auto bpm off and then on again and then the KP3 reported a BPM of 132 and then started jumping around again.
So from this experiment I would say that auto bpm has the following characteristics.
*I works too quickly trying to detect tiny BPM changes which will cause the auto bpm to jump around the actual BPM.
*If it encounters a drastic BPM change, it will just hang out on some random BPM.
*While on this random BPM, if you turn it off and then back on again it will recognize the correct BPM and then drift around again.
I think the best bet for auto BPM usage would be to turn it on and let it get a fix on the BPM of your source material and then turn it back off again. Push the Program/BPM button to display the BPM. If you haven't altered the speed of your source and it is some sort of electronic music then I would adjust the BPM to be a whole number. I think most people would set their drum machines to 120.0 and not 120.3. If you are going to be using samples and not just effect then this the shift and align button on the first beat. Then you should be ok as long as you don't touch the pitch on your turntable or cd deck.
I didn't bother to do any sampling with my experiment. I put a CD into my Denon DNS-1000 and it reported 110BPM. The song had a really straightforward kick pattern and not much else. Once I turned on the auto BPM I watched the KP3 jump from 109.8 up to 111.7.
I tried another CD at 120 BPM. The KP3 seemd to like this one a bit better and did manage to stay on 120 for extended periods, but it did jump up to 120.4 and dip to 195.5.
Then I conducted a third experiment by accident. My denon was in continuous mode so the next song started which was 132 BPM. The auto bpm function got really confused. It hung out at 120 for a while and then dropped to 118.1. I turned auto bpm off and then on again and then the KP3 reported a BPM of 132 and then started jumping around again.
So from this experiment I would say that auto bpm has the following characteristics.
*I works too quickly trying to detect tiny BPM changes which will cause the auto bpm to jump around the actual BPM.
*If it encounters a drastic BPM change, it will just hang out on some random BPM.
*While on this random BPM, if you turn it off and then back on again it will recognize the correct BPM and then drift around again.
I think the best bet for auto BPM usage would be to turn it on and let it get a fix on the BPM of your source material and then turn it back off again. Push the Program/BPM button to display the BPM. If you haven't altered the speed of your source and it is some sort of electronic music then I would adjust the BPM to be a whole number. I think most people would set their drum machines to 120.0 and not 120.3. If you are going to be using samples and not just effect then this the shift and align button on the first beat. Then you should be ok as long as you don't touch the pitch on your turntable or cd deck.
so it jumped up 75.1 bpm? That happens to me too, and hopelessly throws the 1 beat off.subVert wrote:I tried another CD at 120 BPM. The KP3 seemd to like this one a bit better and did manage to stay on 120 for extended periods, but it did jump up to 120.4 and dip to 195.5.
And thanks for giving this a try. Documenting this issue is important. Hopefully we can encourage Korg to release a firmware update; preferably a complete overhaul that can auto-align and allow options for manual triggering of sample loops and adjustment of levels without soloing the selected sample during edit.
Hello folks:
Thanks for all your input regarding the Auto-BPM sensing. Korg Inc. has been looking at this based on our reporting your threads and we "think" we found a small bug in the smoothing of the BPM sensing mechanism. We're looking into it and will get back to you as soon as we have an answer. That's all I really know right now, but thanks to your input we're "on it".
Regards,
Jerry
Thanks for all your input regarding the Auto-BPM sensing. Korg Inc. has been looking at this based on our reporting your threads and we "think" we found a small bug in the smoothing of the BPM sensing mechanism. We're looking into it and will get back to you as soon as we have an answer. That's all I really know right now, but thanks to your input we're "on it".
Regards,
Jerry
Thanks again for taking an interest Jerry. I am still amazed that you are monitoring this board and taking us seriously. I would be happy to beta test any potential firmware updates.
I still think the KP3 is an excellent product. I can't recall ever spending this much time and having so much fun with an effects device before.
I still think the KP3 is an excellent product. I can't recall ever spending this much time and having so much fun with an effects device before.