flat & sharp in the Title bar

KorgVip · Post by **KorgVip** » Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:15 pm

Hi everybody
Why in the Title bar, these two chords D# and A# appear with flat?
D# appears as E flat instead of D#
A# appears as B flat instead of A#
After all, in all the other chords only sharp appears and not flat!

What is the logic behind this? it's confusing.
is there a way to change that?
Thank you

Korghelper · Post by **Korghelper** » Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:14 pm

Ah, the joys of enharmonic changes!

Bottom line is, if the opposite were true, it would be as wrong!

I think the thinking, at least for those two notes, they are extremely common keys for horns to play in. No horn player would ever play in D#!

The bigger problem is that all enharmonic changes are equally valid, with the possible exceptions of E#/F and B#/C which require you to be be playing in F# or C# before they are correct. Not very common keys!

For the changes to be displayed correctly depending on the initial key, the machine would need to be told whether you are playing in E (where a G# chord would be likely) or Eb, where it would be an Ab. And if you modulate in the middle, the key would have to be changed for the chords to display correctly!

Truth is, it’s impossible to have a ‘one size fits all’ system…

KorgVip · Post by **KorgVip** » Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:04 pm

Thank you for your response.
It seems strange to me that this was done especially for horn.
And for D# on the piano, this site says:
"D-sharp minor tends to be notated more often for piano and E-flat minor more often for guitar.".

Sorry, I did not understand what you wrote here:

Korghelper wrote: The bigger problem is that all enharmonic changes are equally valid, with the possible exceptions of E#/F and B#/C which require you to be be playing in F# or C# before they are correct. Not very common keys!

For the changes to be displayed correctly depending on the initial key, the machine would need to be told whether you are playing in E (where a G# chord would be likely) or Eb, where it would be an Ab. And if you modulate in the middle, the key would have to be changed for the chords to display correctly!

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:31 am

For the changes to be displayed correctly depending on the initial key, the machine would need to be told whether you are playing in E (where a G# chord would be likely) or Eb, where it would be an Ab.

+100
This is the answer - can't ever see this becoming an "option" on an arranger.

Example: technically a D# and an Eb are exactly the same, they just appear in different contexts. ... For example, in a key with flattened notes, then you'll (normally) be playing a Eb if you need to use that note, but in a key with sharps, then it'll (normally) be a D#.

KorgVip · Post by **KorgVip** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:27 am

Example: technically a D# and an Eb are exactly the same, they just appear in different contexts. ... For example, in a key with flattened notes, then you'll (normally) be playing a Eb if you need to use that note, but in a key with sharps, then it'll (normally) be a D#.

I know that. I'm not asking about music theory.
My question is simple:
Why Korg decided that only these 2 chords, unlike others, would appear on the screen as b and not as #.
It is not possible to say that this is an arbitrary decision, so what is the logic here?

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:33 am

KorgVip wrote:I know that. I'm not asking about music theory.

No insult to your intelligence intended - your OP implied that you may not have understood that.

KorgVip wrote:Why Korg decided that only these 2 chords, unlike others, would appear on the screen as b and not as #.
It is not possible to say that this is an arbitrary decision, so what is the logic here?

The logic is that there is no logic unless you could specify the key of the song first and then have the PA4X figure out the # or b as appropriate.
I can't ever envisage that being an option.

KorgVip · Post by **KorgVip** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:29 am

Maybe you did not understand me correctly so I will ask again in another way:
Suppose you are in Fingered (1 Note) mode, playing only the black keys.
On the screen appears:
C# Eb F# G# Bb

My question is, would not it be simpler, that everyone would appear only with # (or alternatively only with b)?
C# D# F# G# A#
When some appear with # and some with b, it's confusing!

Korghelper · Post by **Korghelper** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:27 pm

The answer is that there is no answer!

It’s equally wrong no matter whether it’s all sharps, all flats or any combination of both.

But if you look at fake books, I think the thinking is to look at how many songs are in what keys. A LOT of standards tend to be in flat keys, written by piano players for singers in horn bands (which because horns are naturally in flat keys, tend to be written to their better keys) and for someone used to playing these, it would be hard to wrap your head around a tune being in G#, not Ab.

But in the 60’s onwards, more and more pop music was written by and for guitar bands, which play better with their open strings in sharp keys like A and E, which would use the G# a lot.

Bottom line, I find either way, all sharps or all flats utterly useless, and simply don’t look at that at all! If you know what you are playing, you don’t need to look at that screen at all, and if you don’t know what you are playing, looking at that screen won’t help in the slightest with understanding it!

Just ignore it and move on!

RC · Post by RC » Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:54 pm

If I'M not mistaken all of the technics keyboards, I owned, showed the correct cord I was playing. I'll say it one more time they had a much better sequencing and editing system and easier to operate. As for today Korg is my chocie for key board however if Technics was still around it would be a different story

macluit · Post by **macluit** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:43 pm

KorgVip wrote:Hi everybody
Why in the Title bar, these two chords D# and A# appear with flat?
D# appears as E flat instead of D#
A# appears as B flat instead of A#
After all, in all the other chords only sharp appears and not flat!

What is the logic behind this? it's confusing.
is there a way to change that?
Thank you

Hallo

I tink it is in the circuleren of fift’s or fourth’s
Of you start at a c
First Sharp is F#
Second Sharp is C#
Third sharp is G#
Going douwen
First flat is Bb
Second flat is Eb
Thirth flat is AB
Wich is the same as the Thierry raised G#

So (whenyou have played an accordeon en know how the treble knots are placed ) this seems logic to me

Ben

Korghelper · Post by **Korghelper** » Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:17 am

RC wrote:If I'M not mistaken all of the technics keyboards, I owned, showed the correct cord I was playing. I'll say it one more time they had a much better sequencing and editing system and easier to operate. As for today Korg is my chocie for key board however if Technics was still around it would be a different story

Not to say you’re wrong, but how did the Technics know whether you played an Ab (the 4 chord in the key of Eb) or a G# (the 3 chord in the key of E)?

Did you have to tell it what key you were in before you started? Or have to play the 1 chord to start with?

Distance may have rose colored your impression of this feature…

Korghelper · Post by **Korghelper** » Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:27 pm

And what happens if you do a half-step modulation halfway through a song, and that Ab that was the 4 chord of the original key of Eb now needs to be displayed as a G# now you are in E?

See? There is NO correct way for a keyboard to predict how to display enharmonic chords short of you telling it ALL THE TIME what key you are in..!

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