Should Songwriters plan on keeping a ' Kronos ' forever ?

[GregC]

As my original Song ( recorded using the SEQ) list is building and becoming more varied, a thought occurred to me.

Admittedly, I am more serious about my created songs. Some are creations that date back 15-25 yrs. Often this material is a reflection of personal life stuff, like divorce, new girl friends, job stress, happy times with family, etc, etc.

Some might consider their original tunes to be a commodity, possibly disposable, not a big deal, because everything changes, there is always tomorrow, and more creative ideas always occur, etc, etc. I am ok with that
and I frequently add a twist or new part to a prior song. Thats a form of refinement or even evolution of your created song.

I am referring to song material created that is timeless. The structure, the chords, the movement , tempo, rhythm, the melody all coincide to present
a finished and polished product. Suitable for sharing with friends and family, etc.

Thats my context here. Timeless material. Thats usually the test of good material.

Anyway, I am completely relying on the Kronos SONG structure to support my timeless material. Sure, I create WAV files, too. But I rely on the Kronos SONG structure and 16 midi tracks to ' memorize ' the SONG details.

Sure, I can convert SONG to midi, but yucckkk. The converted midi file sounds like junk.

If you have endured my long winded post, here's the question.

My Kronos is +5 yrs old. These keyboards do not last 20-40 years in perfect working order. As a realist, parts on the Kronos will fail. That will be a real drag.
It might be a project to have a service center fix the problem. But some time will pass until another component will go to deep sleep. This will disrupt my
SONG writing mojo, for sure.

And Korg is a capricious company. They all are. Its a business. The next great Korg w/s might not even have the same structure supporting my many SONGs. so my Kronos SONG files are useless on that ' new gen w/s'.

I think my concern( you can call me a worrier) can be addressed a few ways. Buy a K2 and have it as my backup keyboard ( difficult thought) for the next 10 years.

Or I can go over to a software Sequencer (Logic etc) on my MBP and re-record my SONGs . Then the Kronos is mostly an expensive midi controller
and I have made my song library 'future proof'.

Am I missing anything here ? I bet this was not on your 'worry list '

[Falcon2e]

Actually Greg, I don’t think you are the only one ‘worried’. Even though I don’t use my Kronos for song writing, I’ve invested tons of hours building combis and samples that are unique for my live performances. The thought of losing all of that is more than frightening. I started playing back in the days when we saved up our cash so we could buy a Hammond B3, or another model, and felt pretty confident the it would be around for decades. The Hammonds were a different animal, and like the saying goes, they don’t build ‘em like that anymore.

I still have the ‘ol Triton under the bed and it still is working. But like you, I hope Korg will still have some support for our Ks way down the road.

[danmusician]

I feel your pain. I have some tunes that I still use occasionally that were created on the 01/w back in the day. I saved MIDI files and I made audio recordings of the tracks. But the truth is - as awesome as the 01/w is, the tracks still sound pretty dated.

On the other hand, I briefly owned an M3. I composed a couple of tunes based on COMBI/KARMA patterns available there that did not translate to the Kronos. I made audio tracks of those before I got rid of the M3. Those tracks reside in my Kronos. But the truth is, those songs and even my Kronos tunes will eventually sound dated as well.

Since I will be retiring from my day job in a couple months, one of my projects will be to go back and grab some of those songs from the 01/w and re-work them to bring them up-to-date.

In at least one case, I have some audio tracks of BGVs living in an old Roland VS-880 that I will want to pull off as well! Good times!

[GregC]

Actually Greg, I don’t think you are the only one ‘worried’. Even though I don’t use my Kronos for song writing, I’ve invested tons of hours building combis and samples that are unique for my live performances. The thought of losing all of that is more than frightening. I started playing back in the days when we saved up our cash so we could buy a Hammond B3, or another model, and felt pretty confident the it would be around for decades. The Hammonds were a different animal, and like the saying goes, they don’t build ‘em like that anymore.

I still have the ‘ol Triton under the bed and it still is working. But like you, I hope Korg will still have some support for our Ks way down the road.

We are similar age. I also scratched /clawed $$ together to own a B3/Rhodes back in the 70's. I was in a band in those days.

I agree, while our context is different, we have similar concerns. Your combis/samples are essential to preserve. You have invested your time and talent into them.

As you might have guessed I am not betting the ranch on Korg supporting my Kronos and the underlying structure over the next 20 years.

It might be useful to define a timeline, thus 20 years is a fair number. I want to preserve the structure of my Songs for 20 years. Good music is timeless.

[GregC]

I feel your pain. I have some tunes that I still use occasionally that were created on the 01/w back in the day. I saved MIDI files and I made audio recordings of the tracks. But the truth is - as awesome as the 01/w is, the tracks still sound pretty dated.

On the other hand, I briefly owned an M3. I composed a couple of tunes based on COMBI/KARMA patterns available there that did not translate to the Kronos. I made audio tracks of those before I got rid of the M3. Those tracks reside in my Kronos. But the truth is, those songs and even my Kronos tunes will eventually sound dated as well.

Since I will be retiring from my day job in a couple months, one of my projects will be to go back and grab some of those songs from the 01/w and re-work them to bring them up-to-date.

In at least one case, I have some audio tracks of BGVs living in an old Roland VS-880 that I will want to pull off as well! Good times!

You were smart w/the M3. I had the M3M for a year and started to generate new Song ideas. But I was not skilled in recording them, as I had other time consuming priorities, career stuff, etc.

I am not concerned about SONGs sounding dated. Piano, organ, bass, drums , orchestra, woodwinds, brass, are timeless instruments. They support my tunes.
I believe Kronos ( and the Oasys) has done an acceptable job of re-creating
classic instruments.

Congratulations on your imminent retirement from your day job. I am semi retired, have my own business and set my own schedule. I decide how much freedom/time to invest in my Song writing and overall music making. It is great and you will love having the time in your day to pursue your musical ambitions.

[SanderXpander]

This "problem" is not unique to Kronos, it exists with every recording solution. How long do you keep your 24-track tape recorder, your DAT masters, your ProTools projects, etc.

I think the "solution" is two-fold. Firstly, learn to be less attached to the actual projects. Try to consider them a product of who you were at the time and the gear you had at your disposal. Don't be insecure - if you created a good song from scratch that time, you can do it again, there's no need to keep revisiting an existing (and basically finished) project.
Secondly, make good stereo mixdowns and keep them digitally in multiple places. This will ensure you will always have your finished products, which are worth keeping and being attached to. If you really really can't let go you could keep WAV multitracks as well, preserving the separate tracks for a later cut.

[GregC]

1)This "problem" is not unique to Kronos, it exists with every recording solution. How long do you keep your 24-track tape recorder, your DAT masters, your ProTools projects, etc.

2)I think the "solution" is two-fold. Firstly, learn to be less attached to the actual projects. Try to consider them a product of who you were at the time and the gear you had at your disposal. Don't be insecure - if you created a good song from scratch that time, you can do it again, there's no need to keep revisiting an existing (and basically finished) project.
3) Secondly, make good stereo mixdowns and keep them digitally in multiple places. This will ensure you will always have your finished products, which are worth keeping and being attached to. If you really really can't let go you could keep WAV multitracks as well, preserving the separate tracks for a later cut.

Thanks for taking an interest and placing your thoughts on it.

1) I agree to a point. But we are firmly in the digital realm for some time. I don't recall DAT or mini disc ( I worked for Sony) having as significant of a life span. I think we have to do our best to avoid limits with our choices.

2) Thats good hard headed advice - To finalize perspective. But creativity is at the heart/soul with every song. I take license to add an intro, an outro , a new ending. This is what the muse does. I listen to it. It does not strike that often. But I believe it is wise to keep an open mind. But don't construe any of this to conclude I am ' wandering ' on every finished song.
In addition, my skill level is improving. As this occurs, I take on more ambitious Song projects. A friend has challenged me to " why are you taking on such complexity ? ".

And for example, Drum tracks are more of a struggle for my 16 part tunes. As we know, a different Drum rhythm approach throws an existing SONG up in the air. But it might be needed. But I digress.

3) This is very constructive. My mixing skills are somewhat average. For a simple, 5 or 6 track Song, mixing is mostly easy. When I reach 12 or more
midi tracks, add Wav audio files, I need mixing advice from other parties. Another set of good fresh ears in a manner of speaking.
I am also archiving with multiple copies. If my Kronos craps out, I have redundancy on USB drives and on my mac. Each finished Song file has a corresponding WAV file. To have a WAV for each track would be a monster for me. At least, I don't have an easy way to accomplish it.

finally, or initially, my audience is myself, wife, family , friends, acquaintances. They range from enthusiastic to slightly critical ear. I am not marketing or needing to get approval from my musical peers. I do like getting advice from keyboardists that are significantly more skilled and experienced.

Good post, thanks

[Drummond]

Always save a midi file of your songs with a wav file version of each track. If you need to recreate it with newer synths it won't be that hard if you have the recording as a reference for the sounds and the midi for the notes to be played.

[GregC]

Always save a midi file of your songs with a wav file version of each track. If you need to recreate it with newer synths it won't be that hard if you have the recording as a reference for the sounds and the midi for the notes to be played.

I have done that. The midi file comes out sounding like junk for the multi channel type Song. It might be me, of course, what channels I am using.
I will give it a try again.

[pete.m]

Hi Greg,

That's an interesting and thought-provoking post - thank you. Sander's comments were interesting, too. Everyone reading the post will have a different take on it of course, because we all view life (and music) from a different angle.

My personal view is to not concern myself with longevity. As long as I have a recording of the song taken at the time I did it, that is enough for me - it is pointless for me go back to it several years later, because I am no longer the person I was then. The act of making that music at that time has caused me to move on, and has removed the need for me to revisit it. The nearest I get to a concession is that I have taken to jotting down some of the chords and notes, for the rare occasions when I listen back and think 'how did I do that?', but I have yet to call on it.

I used to worry about it. I remember the box of floppy disks from my Trinity, stuck gathering dust under the spare bed for years in case I ever needed them. As it turns out, I don't. Listening to a disc of the music I made back then (something I rarely do) is enough to take me back to that time for the brief moment that I need to do it. It's different for all of us, but I tend to reflect on other aspects of my life in different ways rather than through my old music.

I think that it is better for me, as a human being and as a creative person, to continue to create rather than tether myself to my past. It is the act of creating that is more important to me than the hundreds of pieces that have resulted from it.

I wonder if you'll be able to look back in ten years' time, and consider how comparatively dull the Kronos was compared to whatever you'll be playing then. It seems unlikely at the moment, but I sincerely hope so. In the meantime, best of luck with whatever piece of music you're making. It might be your best yet. Why not? Don't look back!

[Derek Cook]

Hi,

Even if you keep your Kronos for ever (and why not so long as it works and/or is repairable) I would follow the advice and keep both Audio renders of the tracks and MIDI as well. That way you have a chance to do something if ever your Kronos is toast and can't be resurrected and you cannot get another.

That is general good practice for DAWs as well. Who knows what plugins and DAW you use today will be working in 10 years time.

E.g. I still have some 32 bit plugins with no 64 bit equivalents, but Steinberg have now dropped 32 bit support from Cubase, but I still want to use these. JBridge is now keeping these alive for me now, but I am sure a time will come when something no longer works.

So I am in the process of rendering all of my DAW projects as discribed above.

[amit]

Let your audio tracks stand the test of times to come.
Keeps your midis.
The midis will sound crap on their own but once you out them through some decent current/future synths they will hold their own. You'd need to fine tune them.

Now if you are really anal (as in speech) about the flexibility,
You should also save/render each track (preferably dry ) as a separate wave file or in a composite format like mogg. That way you can edit and replace any track in future keeping in what you like etc. It takes some effort to get this done on Kronos though. This way the midi keeps your performance nuances, to trigger any new Synth you might have and stems avoid redoing everything.
I have some tracks I have revisited 20 years later and for some I wish I had saved the stems.

Plan ahead, test the workflow so that everything works, and then get into the habit of sticking to the workflow (hardest part).

[GregC]

Hi Greg,

That's an interesting and thought-provoking post - thank you. Sander's comments were interesting, too. Everyone reading the post will have a different take on it of course, because we all view life (and music) from a different angle.

My personal view is to not concern myself with longevity. As long as I have a recording of the song taken at the time I did it, that is enough for me - it is pointless for me go back to it several years later, because I am no longer the person I was then. The act of making that music at that time has caused me to move on, and has removed the need for me to revisit it. The nearest I get to a concession is that I have taken to jotting down some of the chords and notes, for the rare occasions when I listen back and think 'how did I do that?', but I have yet to call on it.

I used to worry about it. I remember the box of floppy disks from my Trinity, stuck gathering dust under the spare bed for years in case I ever needed them. As it turns out, I don't. Listening to a disc of the music I made back then (something I rarely do) is enough to take me back to that time for the brief moment that I need to do it. It's different for all of us, but I tend to reflect on other aspects of my life in different ways rather than through my old music.

I think that it is better for me, as a human being and as a creative person, to continue to create rather than tether myself to my past. It is the act of creating that is more important to me than the hundreds of pieces that have resulted from it.

I wonder if you'll be able to look back in ten years' time, and consider how comparatively dull the Kronos was compared to whatever you'll be playing then. It seems unlikely at the moment, but I sincerely hope so. In the meantime, best of luck with whatever piece of music you're making. It might be your best yet. Why not? Don't look back!

Good post and perfectly valid approach. FYI, I am 64. Its better to concern myself with maintaining longevity and maintaining finger strength, agility, skill level.


So the years 1994- 2003 were significant,personally. It was positive, negative, and in between. And unsurprisingly, I had some creative spurts that are memorialized as individual songs. The gear I used were simply tools, a Triton, Roland 3080.

I am good at compartmentalizing the past mentally. Once stuff is in a Song, its been captured and wrapped up and dealt with. The Song material is something
I am proud of. We are products of our past. We can't deny it. Not to be construed that I am suggesting to be mired or hung up in the past. Not the slightest. PM me if I am not clear enough.

Perhaps, like other song writers, I am creating a body of work, a catalog. it spans decades. Its not just about today or month in time or this month.

Since the Kronos has been such a key ( the SEQ) and being somewhat of a planner, I am giving thought to possible limits and the end game of the file/Song structure. I know this sounds somewhat controlling but I wanted to fully air out
and understand the resourced needed to support Song material over the next 20 years.

It might sound like over thinking. I am not big on relying on the short term too much. I realize there are many musicians who are in the 'don't worry' frame of mind. I am not attempting to change anyone here.

As an analogy consider planning your retirement.
We should not wait until 60 to plan retirement . Some people begin retirement planning and decisions starting by late 30's. People who think long term often achieve their goals. Thinking things thru and planning are good exercises.

[SanderXpander]

If you are really bent on preservation I would agree with a combination of what has been already mentioned -
1. keep the midi (converting to SMF will do fine for this purpose), a single 16 track file should be fine
2. and bounce every single track to audio and keep those too.
3. Bounce your mix so that you have the relative volumes as well as a quick way to listen.

It's the most fail safe approach I can think of, short of your Kronos living forever.

[pete.m]

Hi Greg,

You don't sound controlling, guilty of over-thinking, or living in the past to me. Far from it - you're just weighing up ways of handling something that is a pivotal part of your life, which is exactly as it should be.
The fact that you are considering the longevity of your music merely indicates the value you place on it. Good for you - go for it.

As far as the technical side is concerned, Amit's suggestions sound like good advice to me.