Choices!!!!!

[Synthoid]

Anyone?

[Shakil]

Synthoid...

With OS 1.3, you can make MIDI phrases into arpeggiator. So, basically you can record your own MIDI phrase and then use that as apegiator.

You still get 1 arp at a time.
You still get 1 part arp.
But, you have Arp Sets on Pads.. so you get quick access to 16 arps in real time by pressing the Pads.
You still get dedicated Drum Pattern, which can be taken from any phrase as well.
Plus you have RPS, multitmberal MIDI phrases....

So, you can see that it has come a long way, but still can't match M3 and XS. The only benefit I see is the ease of creating your own Arp. Just record a MIDI phrase and use it as Arp.

[Synthoid]

One arp... how disappointing. Even the (older) Triton has two.

Thanks.

[Shakil]

Synthoid..... one arp, one rhythm pattern, AND RPS..... same as the Triton.

[Shakil]

Sani:

First, the Fantom G lacks the most important effect for multimode and song creating: the EQ. The M3 has it for every single sound. In a combination I often want to adjust the single sound to sit fine in a mix together with others. This is especially a must in the process of creating a song. It's impossible on the Fantom G, unless you replace the original effect with an EQ.
The Aux Effects on the Fantom G are still those eigthies GM based Reverb+Chorus/Delay effects. On the M3 any effect can be used as an Aux/Master Effect.
The Fantom G makes some sound creations almost impossible:
Organ with rotary effect and overdrive? How, if there is only one insert effect.
E. Piano with Phaser and an Amp model and Overdrive? The same.

Also, it is not true that the single patches will sound exactly the same in the multi mode. What if a lead sound uses a delay effect as master/aux effect and an E. Piano uses a chorus as a master effect.
In multimode you have to decide if you want the master effect to be either delay or chorus.
Not to mention that you can't even copy the effects.
The M3 is surely limited with only 5 inserts, but otherwise, the routing possibilities goes far beyond what can be done on a Fantom G.

I agree with that analysis of Fantom-G's effects. Motif XS has the same issue with effects, but that has EQ...

However, in Studio mode in Fantom G, there are two MFX before the reverb and chorus.

[Shakil]

BillWill and evildragon...

Regarding multisampling in Fantom-G... here is the issue....

Do you know there is a limit of 2000 samples in a project? Even though you have 1GB or RAM? All of the audio tracks are saved as samples as well.... 4 layers of 128 samples is 512... 1/4th of the limit.... I used to have 1000s of drum hit samples in Fantom-X.... now can't since the limit has been reduced to less than 1/3 ...

This might not affect a lot of people, but if you do lot of multi sampling and use audio tracks... sooner or later you will hit that limit.

But as a central workstation and master keyboard..... Fantom-G rules!

[Synthoid]

Synthoid..... one arp, one rhythm pattern, AND RPS..... same as the Triton.

Ok.....got it!

[dtscape]

Ok....
Finally decided on what I'm going to do.
I'm gonna go against what a lot of people have suggested and go for the soft synth route..... For me it will be a worthy purchase due to the fact that I can upgrade the system at any point without costing to much(compared to a workstation anyway). The possibilities are endless really...

I'm getting a 13" MacBook Pro with a midi keyboard (to be decided ... Probably an CME VK7) ... a Roland amp and maybe a seperate soundcard to spread the sound a bit...

Thank you for all the advice guys but I feel this is my best option ... I could not decide between the Korg M3 or Roland Fantom G as they both had pro's and cons where as the soft synth possibilities are endless.

Cheers
PAUL

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Paul,

Everything has pros andcons, but so far we have not really discussed the downside of a soft synth approach.

A soft synth with DAW is definitely a good choice if your work is mainly to record music into a DAW in a studio. The reason I never went down the softsynth route is that I am a keyboard player, who accompanies live vocalists and choirs in churches and cathedrals. With the softsynths I tried a couple of years ago, the delay between when you press notes on a keyboard controller and the sound coming out of a soft synth with a few EFX applied was something I could not cope with when playing live. It was like playing a keyboard covered in thick treacle.

I would be interested in your feedback on whether your softsynth approach leads to something that you can play (on the keys) in real time without noticeable delay/ latency? Or maybe it doesn't matter for you?

Incidentally, for non real-time style generation, Band in a Box is fantastic. I just wish the latency issues could be solved to allow it to respond in real time to a keyboard player. Then it would make a fantastic arranger.

Best regards,
Rob

[dtscape]

Latency is not an issue these days. I had a similar problem a few years back when I first started trying soft synths (on an xp machine). I discovered Asio4all which solved a few problems on my pc including the latency.... It was wonderful.

I will be using a program called "Mainstage"... Even using the Logic synths/samplers it can do a wonderous amount of things. Even before using other soft synth products... They can easily be added. Check out Mainstage in youtube and you'll see how much flexability you have. Nine Inch Nails have a video on there of them using them.... for keyboards and vocal effects... its great stuff.
A good friend of mine has got this setup and the sonic boundaries are endless... Its a wonderful bit of kit.

Check it out!!!

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Paul,

The audio latency was never the problem. It was the MIDI note latency before the audio starts to be generated that was the problem. I asked PG Music (creators of Band in a Box) if there was any way on a PC of reducing the MIDI "note on"or "chord recognition" latency for use with BiaB to less than 10 ms. Their reply was that they could not reduce it to less than 100 ms.

A tenth of a second delay between playing notes and hearing them is unacceptable for a pianist playing live. Also this sort of delay in chord recognition is impossible to cope with in real-time, no-one would buy an arranger keyboard that responded that slowly. That's why I use a Pa2x for real-time "live" accompaniments, instead of using BiaB on a PC.

Then I've tried experiments to measure the MIDI turnaround delay using my other keyboard which is a Korg M3. The test environment comprised Korg's M3 Editor plug-in coupled to a Cakewalk Sonar 8.5 track on a fast Windows XP computer, and interfacing my M3 with MIDI over USB (the fastest MIDI data rate possible). I played notes on the M3 keybed with local off, sent the notes to Sonar via the M3 Editor plug-in, and then sent them back via Sonar to the M3 to play the sounds in real-time on the M3 via the M3 audio outputs. The overall turn-around delay exceeded 350 ms, it was completely unusable. ASIO did not come into this at all, I was not measuring audio latency, I was measuring MIDI turn-round latency.

But, like I said before, if real-time accompaniment and keyboard playing is not something you require to do, then a softsynth-only setup will be fine. If you ever want to play your compositions live, I'm pretty sure you will need a keyboard solution, even for the next 2 years ...

Open Labs are making some stuff like the Miko and Neko that is a hybrid keyboard solution with PC-based core that will run softsynths. I know that a huge amount of development effort in both custom hardware and software has gone into reducing the key-on to sound-on latency. I have not yet heard of anyone playing a Miko or Niko to accompany vocalists in real time using one of the internal soft synths. But I think if anyone can crack those problems, it will be Open Labs ...

Please prove me wrong (I mean that genuinely). Please tell me of any software based solution that allows an 88-note keyboard to be used in real-time with a PC or MAC based soft-synth while accompanying vocalists? Because that is the way I want to go as well ... until then I must continue flying my Pa2x-cum-M3 spaceship ...



Best regards,
Rob

[dtscape]

I've never really had an issue with accompanying people with a soft synth. I've never experienced a delay in the notes sounding when I hit them(except prior to Asio4all). Being a musician, time keeping is majorly important so I played around on the soft synths to make sure it keeps up, and in time, with what I'm playing. On my windows vista I used the Asio4all system with a Roland Fantom X8 and there was no delay in playing... It kept up with everything I threw at it (pitch bends, modulation, arpeggios, scales, Dream Theater speed keyboard solos, classical licks.... etc.) It sounded just like playing a hardware synth...

I am obviously aware that soft synth have had there issues in the past and thats why I've opted for a Mac... They are reputed to be ideally suited to music. I noticed on the recent Transatlantic DVD (came with the cd of The Whirlwind) that Neal Morse was just using a master keyboard and a Apple laptop.. Now I'm sure he wouldn't put up with time delays!!!!

[Rob Sherratt]

Maybe it's just Windoze sleeping away ... I never used a Mac so far.

Thanks!
Rob

[Stefanus Wayanartha]

I agree with Rob. In some case, PC's processing has some limit. that is a latency problem. because we know that behind all processes you can see, there are so many hidden or background processes you cannot see, and they runs and somehow create a bit latency to audio process.

before i used M3, i usually play live with my X5D and a laptop. And for live keyboard performance in a band, i was quite happy with that solution.

But for accompanying people, it would be a very complex and heavy process for a laptop to do it. because there is a midi transfer process (from a gear to a pc/laptop), receiving and processing midi events (listening to note-on), chord recognition (with a complex read and recognise all the key you pressed, every time you press the key), and of course the last and the heaviest is sound generating.. and that would create a lot of latency, even with nowadays laptop.

Hence, i use a macbook pro for live. and i tried a lot of VST to backup my M3 for certain sounds. and i still can feel the latency when i use my MB for live... so i think macbook pro will cannot stand if i use so much VST and midi processing to accompanying people.

And the last, i agree with Rob's solution. Use M3 and PA2X to create a great music lively. with no "heart sport" offcourse and i can totaly focus to what i play without worry about latency

but it's really subjective explanation. And all things back to your need, your purpose and your taste as long as we can create a great music, anything can be used

Stefanus W

[dtscape]

I think I'm missunderstanding your perception of accompanying someone... What do you mean exactly?
Are you referring to having a midi sequence running or are you just referring to playing a piano accompaniment?
If your using a sequencer there is a real simple solution... Record your sequence pattern as a wav file and then play this as a sample. This saves a lot of processing.... Thats the way I'm going to do it.

But as I said... I'm not sure what you guys are talking about exactly!!!!
Being in a band you are accompanying people aren't you?!?!?!