How can a KARMA Module control another KARMA Module

[Emanuil Stoyanov]

Can a phrase generated by a KARMA module (e.g. from Module A) and applied to some timbre be used at the input of another KARMA module (e.g. from Module B) and control it? How can this be done?

Thank you!

[Dan Stesco]

Select two modules for same MIDI CH output.
For example Timbre 1 Midi Ch2
Go to page Karma Ge Setup/Key Zones
Module A Input Gch, output Ch2
Module B Input Gch, output Ch2

[Emanuil Stoyanov]

Select two modules for same MIDI CH output.
For example Timbre 1 Midi Ch2
Go to page Karma Ge Setup/Key Zones
Module A Input Gch, output Ch2
Module B Input Gch, output Ch2

Thank you, Dan!
Now I see that I asked the question inaccurately, which is why you didn't understand me correctly. Sorry!
What you are suggesting works when we want two modules to control one timbre. However, if we want the second module to receive data from the first and control another timbre (Timbre 2), can we do it this way:

For example:
Timbre 1 Midi Ch2
Timbre 2 Midi Ch3
We go to the Karma Ge Setup/Key Zones page
Module A Input Gch, Output Ch2
Module B Input Ch2, Output Ch3

In other words, the question is whether the result of the action of Module A on Timbre 1 can be used as input to Module B, which will control Timbre 2?

[Dan Stesco]

Module B input Ch2 not generated sound. You should trigger the Gch to work.
If I understand well you try to chain two modules to work on timbre 2 ? Also module A to work on timbre 1 as well ?
In your example Module A generate the arp for Timbre 1 and Module B not sound. If check the Module B input "Gch Also" will work independent. Module A for Timbre 1 and Module B for timbre 2.

[Emanuil Stoyanov]

Thanks Dan for the quick reply!

What I am trying to do is this:
Let's assume that Timbre 1 (Ch2) is a guitar and Timbre 2 (Ch3) is a piano.
Then I want:
1. Module A to generate some guitar motif (accompaniment).
2. The notes that are in the guitar motif, they drive Module B, which generates the piano arpeggiation (i.e. the guitar accompaniment itself drives Module B, not the notes I play). I'm trying to get KARMA to do a sequential application of 2 (and why not 3 modules) on the scheme:
Keyboard (Gch) --> Module A (applied to Timbre 1 (Ch2)) --> Module B (applied to Timbre 2 (Ch3)).

Is there a way to do this?

If it is not possible, then why is it allowed in the "Karma Ge Setup/Key Zones page" that Modules A, B, C, D can have other values than Gch in the "In chanel"?

Sorry Dan, but maybe there's something fundamental I don't know about MIDI channels to think such a thing is possible!

[voip]

For the output of a Kronos KARMA module to be able to send MIDI to the input of another KARMA module in the same Kronos, it would either require KARMA's MIDI output data to be placed on an internal MIDI bus, or to be have the option able to be specifically link to another KARMA module in the KARMA settings.

As far as I'm aware, from trying various things with Kronos' MIDI over the years, there appears to be no such bus inside the Kronos; neither physical, nor implemented in software in the Kronos OS, nor is there an option in Kronos' KARMA settings to route KARMA module outputs to inputs. Kronos' internal MIDI data traffic travels along specific pathways, rather than being generally available to all parts of the sound generating architecture. The main reason is probably to prevent MIDI loops from forming.

Simply looping the Kronos' MIDI Out to MIDI In, using a MIDI cable, would allow the MIDI output generated by a KARMA module to be routed back in, but would cause a MIDI loop, making the Kronos unusable. However, there is a possible solution, in the form of a MIDI processor between Kronos' MIDI Out and Midi In. Something like the MIDI Solutions Event Processor device could be set up to change the channel of the Kronos MIDI Out messages, or to filter out all other channels, and then send the data back to the Kronos MIDI In.

As far as I can tell, in the current PC software KARMA versions, it is also not possible to route a KARMA module's output back to another KARMA module's input, within the software. However, it does seem that it might be possible for a module in KARMA software, running on a PC, to trigger a KARMA module on the Kronos. Perhaps Stephen Kay would be kind enough to comment.

https://www.midisolutions.com/products.htm

https://www.karma-lab.com/kk

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[Dan Stesco]

If it is not possible, then why is it allowed in the "Karma Ge Setup/Key Zones page" that Modules A, B, C, D can have other values than Gch in the "In chanel"?

The concept of karma is to translate simple chords or simple notes and generate effect. It is much clearer when you use karma software. I don't know if there is a big deal by triggering a module starting from another arpeggiator also how to avoid double midi notes, rather using two arpeggiators on the same track and that is possible. Maybe should ask Stephen about chaining modules.
Regarding input midi ch by module is ready to use any Midi Ch using external MIDi controllers, DAW or Kronos SEQ.
Anyway, I will try to chain two modules using two Kronos and will see what's happened. More info could be useful, which arp patterns for module A and which sound, also which patterns for module B and which sound.

[Emanuil Stoyanov]

The main reason is probably to prevent MIDI loops from forming.

Thank you voip,

You are absolutely right that connecting two or more KARMA modules in series would allow to organize so called MIDI cycles. This could cause the generation of a large number of MIDI data, which would "overload" the MIDI buses. This is similar to the concept of "Indirect Recursion" in programming languages, where one function (Func1()) can call another function (Func2()), which in turn calls the first function again (Func1()), and so on. This can cause the computer's memory to overflow unless some "recursion termination condition" is provided. My guess is that KORG has hedged against such problems and probably removed such a possibility.

Thank you for the links and ideas!

[Emanuil Stoyanov]

Maybe should ask Stephen about chaining modules.

More info could be useful, which arp patterns for module A and which sound, also which patterns for module B and which sound.

Thank you Dan,

I'm very curious what Stephen has to say on the issue of connecting modules in series, and the result of your experiment with two KRONOS. I suspect the key to the answer lies in the fact that the KARMA modules are designed to run in parallel, not in series, and probably use the same clock generator.

Unfortunately I don't have a concrete example prepared for specific arp patterns in the two modules. My idea was rather whether such a coupling of modules would not lead to more diverse and more complex phrases, with a higher degree of randomness. For example, to achieve a continuously changing guitar motif when holding the same chord for a long time (when both modules A and B drive guitar timbres and generate guitar accompaniments).

[thethirdapple]

If im understanding correctly…

Worked this out a while ago… posted on KLF. Requires a few bits of extra gear/software but yields crazy results hard to tame! No reason it cant get done the same way with the Kronos.

https://forums.karma-lab.com/forum/show ... hp?t=22076



OT:

I have also shared with Stephen a very “unofficial” and unsanctioned method for extending RTC of KARMA MW to mimic what could be done with KARMA as a plugin/audio unit. As if he didn’t already know… Similar but different to what was implemented in v3 of KARMA.

————

Oh and I may have found an incredible, bug, feature or glitch with MW, while developing a custom midi controller… Havent heard back from Stephen on this one, I pester him a lot and MW is how old now !?!?

I only have the og WS and a Triton Rack both with the respective software, if anyone is willing to try with any other KARMA enable synth with the software companion, please let me know if the “glitch” works in newer versions of Karma?

https://forums.karma-lab.com/forum/show ... hp?t=22178

Or cut to the chase with a video illustration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJQRuaNE0f0





PEACE
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[thethirdapple]

The main reason is probably to prevent MIDI loops from forming.

Thank you voip,

You are absolutely right that connecting two or more KARMA modules in series would allow to organize so called MIDI cycles. This could cause the generation of a large number of MIDI data, which would "overload" the MIDI buses. This is similar to the concept of "Indirect Recursion" in programming languages, where one function (Func1()) can call another function (Func2()), which in turn calls the first function again (Func1()), and so on. This can cause the computer's memory to overflow unless some "recursion termination condition" is provided. My guess is that KORG has hedged against such problems and probably removed such a possibility.

Thank you for the links and ideas!

The midi loops can be avoided and some really cool compositions can be generated with the karmic ouroboros…

Using presets and GE already created is a tough road, but if you make your own GE’s specifically for this purpose, its been a wealth of incidental musical delight!!!


PEACE
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[Emanuil Stoyanov]

If im understanding correctly…

Worked this out a while ago… posted on KLF. Requires a few bits of extra gear/software but yields crazy results hard to tame! No reason it cant get done the same way with the Kronos.

https://forums.karma-lab.com/forum/show ... hp?t=22076

Thank you for joining the thread!

At least for now, I understand that this idea can only be implemented using the KARMA software, but not with KRONOS alone.

[voip]

The idea cannot be implemented with the Kronos alone, but a MIDI processor between Kronos' MIDI Out and MIDI In, allows this to be acheived with minimal extra hardware. The MIDI Solutions devices are small boxes, and are MIDI powered, so just two MIDI cables with the small MIDI Event Processor box in between, would allow you to experiment.

MIDI-OX software can be used to perform MIDI filtering, if you want to see how well KARMA self-triggering could work for you. MIDI-OX is rather limited in its MIDI filtering capabilities, but relatively easy to set up. The MIDI Solutions Event Processor allows a greater degree of sophistication of the MIDI filter algorithm, but takes a bit longer to set up initially. The settings are stored on the Event Processor itself, even with no power applied, so once programmed, no more needs to be done. The software used to program the MIDI Solutions devices can be downloaded from the MIDI Solutions website for free, and used to see what filtering possibilities are available. The programming software can be downloaded from:

https://www.midisolutions.com/support.htm

.

[thethirdapple]

If im understanding correctly…

Worked this out a while ago… posted on KLF. Requires a few bits of extra gear/software but yields crazy results hard to tame! No reason it cant get done the same way with the Kronos.

https://forums.karma-lab.com/forum/show ... hp?t=22076

Thank you for joining the thread!

At least for now, I understand that this idea can only be implemented using the KARMA software, but not with KRONOS alone.

My apologies for not being clear... the Karma on Karma on KARMA... thing is directly with the workstation and an external software Patchbay or physical midi patchbay. NOT with the KARMA software... although that opens up even more zaniness...

MidiOx can work on PC or on Mac I use a program called "midi patchbay". Or you can use a physical Patchbay if you have one.

The idea is that KARMA data is only output from the WS when in sequencer or song mode, not in combi or prog mode.

Import a combi or prog in to sequencer of the WS and give each module a discreet midi channel to send and receive on. The Kronos has more modules than the og KARMA WS but the idea is the same... Again not having a Kronos I can't speak to the specifics but having read (and lusted over) all the manuals its pretty much the same procedure...


Sidenote: having multiple KARMA enable synths to bounce off of and drive a bunch of studio gear is awesome. I have pretty much directed all of our studio efforts to building a Karmic Rig and custom midi controllers specifically for KARMA.

Will post some of our multi karmic jams one day...

PEACE
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[thethirdapple]

The idea cannot be implemented with the Kronos alone, but a MIDI processor between Kronos' MIDI Out and MIDI In, allows this to be acheived with minimal extra hardware. The MIDI Solutions devices are small boxes, and are MIDI powered, so just two MIDI cables with the small MIDI Event Processor box in between, would allow you to experiment.

MIDI-OX software can be used to perform MIDI filtering, if you want to see how well KARMA self-triggering could work for you. MIDI-OX is rather limited in its MIDI filtering capabilities, but relatively easy to set up. The MIDI Solutions Event Processor allows a greater degree of sophistication of the MIDI filter algorithm, but takes a bit longer to set up initially. The settings are stored on the Event Processor itself, even with no power applied, so once programmed, no more needs to be done. The software used to program the MIDI Solutions devices can be downloaded from the MIDI Solutions website for free, and used to see what filtering possibilities are available. The programming software can be downloaded from:

https://www.midisolutions.com/support.htm

.

ditto on all that!

thank you voip, for being clear. My ideas are usually happening faster than I can type.


PEACE
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