Using Pa4X in a Live Band

[Scott]

Almost every board has its compromises when it comes to seamless transitions. And of course, there are plenty of boards that could not even do what I did in that video.

Someone mentioned you need a Kronos to do this kind of thing properly, but while of course the Kronos is one of the best board for seamless switching, there are even things the PA does better here. For example, using my video example of a split, you may find that when you change to a different RH sound (and have only a few octaves available for it), you might want to quickly adjust its octave. Simple on the PA, not on the Kronos (though you can ameliorate that by selecting a Kronos with more than 61 keys, if you can deal with the travel weight). PA is also better at being able to sustain a held sound through multiple patch changes. It's always something.

arbitrarily restricting yourself to sounds that you know won't glitch restricts your choices.!

As does having just one board vs. multiple boards, or having a board that has sound set X vs. sound set Y. For choosing sounds on the fly during performance--even though we're talking about scenarios where you may not know what you'll need next--how many sounds do you really need to be able to choose from on a whim? I demonstrated the approach I did because the "challenge" was "no advance setup." But with very minimal advance setup, you could create a User bank with, say, 32 commonly used favorite sounds that you know won't glitch (I picked 32 for this example because 4 pages of 8 means you can get to any sound with no more than two taps, but you could certainly go beyond that if need be)... that would probably get you through just about any improvisational or similar scenario where you can't predict what sound you'll want to be switching to at a given moment. In a situation like that, you probably don't need to be able to pick any of 10+ Rhodes and 10+ Wurlis at a moment's notice, one of each is probably sufficient. A variety of 32 common sounds would handle most common songs that don't need something very song-specific. And this setup would have the advantage of putting those 32 favorite sounds within two taps, whereas the "unrestricted" method can still require more than two taps to get to the sound you're looking for.

Going back to the LH bass scenario, even in the Kronos, you'd really want to advance-setup a selection of "common things I might want to pick on the fly." The Kronos is not really setup to let you pick ANY right hand sound at any time unrestricted, again the PA is better here. Okay, the PA might glitch in some cases, but Kronos is worse. If you use the Quick Split feature, every sound change will create a hard cutoff... even just changing your RH sound will silence your LH sound! So instead you have to go to a LH bass Combi and go to the Edit page of your right-hand sound. Then at least you can freely pick right hand sounds without cutoff and without glitching your LH bass... BUT this method doesn't bring in effects at all! (There is a "Copy From Program" option that brings in effects, but everything--even the sound you're not changing--cuts out, among other issues.) Again, there's always something...

[Korghelper]

Korghelper said

The problem with pickup live band work is that you never really know what transitions you are likely to make (bandleader calls a tune, off you go!), you never know what the next tune will be, you never know if you are going to segue to the next tune or stop (and give you time to change without glitches). And arbitrarily restricting yourself to sounds that you know won't glitch restricts your choices.
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That seems very amateurish?

Not knowing what comes next that is.

The heart of any PA is using Songbook and Setlists where all the customising has been done off stage and if you are not using these functions then surely you are using the wrong keyboard on stage as it is in this case.

Amateurish? Tell you what. I am guessing from this answer that no bandleader has ever called you up to fill in for someone that evening. And a different one the next. This thread is about using arrangers in a live band setting, and unless it's a band you regularly play in, playing sets you know in advance, you need to be able to be flexible. If the bandleader calls a tune you haven't made a setup for, guess who's going to look amateurish when you can't get the sounds you need in a hurry? If he changes the set because the crowd wants something different and your Songbook hasn't got what you need, who's the amateur then?

Of course in a situation where you are doing a rote show allows you to use the tools the arranger provides to step from each setup to each setup, usually seamlessly if you program it that way. But get too reliant on that, and when curves get thrown at you it is easy to choke.

Being prepared is only the start. Being prepared that your preparations may come to naught is the next step! One of my greatest musical joys is in sitting in with strangers, playing tunes I may only know cursorily, and not knowing in advance what I have to do. The minute you know what's going to happen in advance, it all gets a bit humdrum.

But maybe I'm just being amateurish...

[Scott]

Yeah, "on the fly" patch selection is not related to amateurish-vs-professionalism. "On the fly" vs. "prep all your song settings in advance are just different ways to work," called for in different contexts.

The idea that it is amateurish to "wing it" kind of reminds me about how a beginner plays lots of wrong notes; the intermediate player gets all the right notes; and an advanced player knows when to put the wrong notes back in. Like that, depending on what you're goal is, winging it can be a beginner's approach, but can also be an advanced players' way to go.

Personally, I mostly wing my patch selection. There are a handful of songs where I've pre-assembled sound combinations, but it's the exception. Here are examples to support winging it...

One of my bands plays weddings, etc., and has a repertoire of 300+ songs. 95% of them use some combination of the same dozen-ish sounds. I'm not going to spend countless hours programming in 300 variations of the same sounds If I can call up my key sounds on the fly (piano, rhodes, wurli, strings, horns, flute, etc.), and especially if I can easily combine/place them however I want. (Two boards can also be very helpful here!) So there's no need to program things in, PLUS if I want (or need) to swap in a different board at any time, I can play the gig with that board without having to first program 300 songs into it. As long as it, too, has easy on-the-fly access to the sounds I need. (And as per my demo, a common way I need to be able to get to them is while playing LH bass, so that's a feature I look for.)

Another example is when I've played in the backup band for an open mic night. People come up from the audience, and you have no idea what song they may ask for. Sometimes it's something I've never played before. Hopefully I have at least a passing familiarity. But it's a fun challenge. As long as someone in the band is solid on it, it works. You just do things like play sparsely at the beginning, watch the hands of the guitarist or bassist to see where he's going, lay off the ones as needed, stuff like that. It also helps to be skilled at turning a wrong note into a right one. But you're not going to have anything set up in advance... and it's not amateurish.

But if If I was playing in different kinds of bands, and maybe with a particular repertoire, setting up custom patches for most songs could certainly be the preferable way to go as well. There's no right or wrong answer for this.

[siebenhirter]

Yeah, "on the fly" patch selection is not related to amateurish-vs-professionalism. "On the fly" vs. "prep all your song settings in advance are just different ways to work," called for in different contexts..

Songbook and setlist work well in some situations (one way). But if you go to your keyboard and want play some melodies - you might just remember it, you just heard it or just want to be play it ad hoc for someone - then you certainly will not start to program a Songbook-Entry with some KbdSets. One should be ready each time with a number of standard registries, which can be used ad hoc in each situation (another way).
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"Songbook and Setlists is the key to using any Pa" or "Select your song and all settings will be ready to play" are slogans, which constantly are
repeated in this forum for no reason.
Although this corresponds to the advertising line of Korg, but otherwise this recommendation not always is valid. At least each entry must also be
pre-programmed for a Song.
Of course, that's enough if someone often plays songs with a fixed program, which he also pre-programmed in the songbook.
It is also sufficient if you use pre-made songbooks for this and leave the programming to someone else, because you do not want to or can not deal with it yourself.
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Without need of a fixed sequence of songs or defined repertoires it is better to have a couple of keyboardsets.
As mentioned from Sharmman that keyboardsets should come as possible as with smooth transition.
As mentioned from Karmathanever the StylePlay mode will give us the power for just sounds (layering etc).
This also comfortable is to realize with direct access to buttons of style-menue or buttons of kbdSet-library (with Auto-Selections) but also combined with the use of Setlists.
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With Pa1000 for a minimal advanced setup of KbdSets or Sounds most common songs that don't need something very song-specific you can handle with
direct access to 12 Buttons (of Style Menue),
direct access to 9 Buttons (of KbdSet-Menue),
direct access to 4 Buttons of KbdSet#1-4,
1 Switch-Button (StyleToKbdSet),
1 Switch-Button (SetList).

Without SetList-function you have direct access via selection of one button to (4 x 12 + 9) to 57 KbdSets/Sounds.
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With also using SetList function (on/off with Switch-Button SetList) there are further additional 36 KbdSets/Sounds (9 x 4) for direct access selection.
Setlist unfortunately SetList does not work satisfactorily with the StyleToKbdSet function (switch button). It is not practical, because each selection of the SetList automatically switches to KbdSet # 1. That even if StyleToKbdSet = OFF, but only should happen if is ON.
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The function StyleToKbdSet works satisfactory in StylePlayMode only, but with SetList it is unusable because automatically loading of KbdSet # 1 prevent choicing selectively. With correct function otherwise a preselection could be done with the KbdSet-Buttons and thus enable soft transitions, holded notes or playing continuously without interruption by ugly bumps by automatical loading of KbdSet # 1.
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Pa4 using Auto Select and direct access buttons as described, preparation of a number universally applicable registrations / sounds is no big deal. At least not as expensively to prepare and manage a songbook entries for each song one want to play someday.

Would be nice to accept, that there are also variations (different ways) to use a Pa-Arranger, where a song is not selected with Sb-Entry to get all settings for exactly one song.[

[Biggles]

I have often mentioned how good the Korg UK webinars are.

If you go to the Korg UK website that is specific to their arrangers, namely korgworld.co.uk you will find the link to the webinar hosting site.

All past webinars are available to view at anytime after the live webinar is broardcast.

The one on the 12th September this year featured Chris Johnson a professional keyboard player who uses his PA in an innovative way and customises the Styles and especially the Keyboard Sets.

You may find it very useful to view said webinar to learn CJ’s technique.

[siebenhirter]

I have often mentioned how good the Korg UK webinars are.
.... uses his PA in an innovative way ...

No matter how often mentioned here how good Korg UK webinars would be - everybody for itself will judge whether this webinares are good.

Useful informations you really substantially get more thoroughly and faster.
One way maybe simply read the manual, whereas webinar like commercial advertising is waste of time if interested seriously - eg like how to customise a Pa-keyboard for ones needs, you get well-founded information in the manual, without the annoying commercials of a webinar.

[Biggles]

I have often mentioned how good the Korg UK webinars are.
.... uses his PA in an innovative way ...

No matter how often mentioned here how good Korg UK webinars would be - everybody for itself will judge whether this webinares are good.

Useful informations you really substantially get more thoroughly and faster.
One way maybe simply read the manual, whereas webinar like commercial advertising is waste of time if interested seriously - eg like how to customise a Pa-keyboard for ones needs.

[Giner]

Re. Korg World UK, does anyone know when the first digital edition of the magazine is supposed to appear?

[Musicwithharry]

I am not sure how I missed this topic, but I would like to enter my thoughts...

I own the PA700. I use it for many things:

1. Studio work
2. Nursing Home Ministry
3. Solo shows showcasing my original music
4. Classic Rock band where I am a keyboardist
5. Christian band where I am the principle instrument (Sequenced songs that the guitarists and I play over)

1. I use this in my studio where I program songs and record them to my DAW and structure songs. It works well in both style and sequencer mode this way.

2. I have a nursing home ministry where I perform about 30-40 times a month using the styles built in to the unit and play big band, country, waltzes, etc... Some shows I also use Song Mode and play MP3 songs from the library I have built on the MicroSD card I put into the unit.

3. Solo Shows - I have 21 albums out and use the PA700 to play the MP3 soundbeds of my albums and solo over them with the custom keyboard sets on the PA700 I made for each song.

4. Classic Rock band - I am the keyboardist and have made custom keyboard sets for each song that we do and I call them up before each song is played. A few of the songs we do require me to use the KAOSS feature to trigger arp patterns. For those songs, I create a style in the tempo of the song and press the metronome for a measure or two to set the tempo for everyone else so the arp patterns will be in tempo when I kick in the arp patterns after the song has started. The drummer is pretty good about keeping tempo after I trigger the metronome to set it. One thing I do to make sure that I do not trigger any style playing during our songs is to make sure that the Sync Start/Auto Start button is not activated. That way, on the songs where I am using a split, I do not inadvertently trigger a style to play.

5. Christian band - I write the songs that we play in the sequencer and the two guitarists and myself play over the sequences. It works very well and allows me to sequence all of the nuances of the original song that often do not get played in live shows (unless the original band who wrote the songs play to backing tracks or have a sequencer controlling everything anyway). I program extra guitar parts, extra keyboard parts, etc... to make sure the song I programmed sounds as close to the original as it can. I also use Style mode for the songs that I do live with the band. It works very well.

The main point to the OP's request is to make sure that while in Style Mode, turn off the Sync Start/Auto Start so that you do not trigger a style when playing the Upper/Lower parts accidentally.

My PA700 is part of a multi-keyboard setup with the Classic Rock and Christian bands. I usually bring at least 3 boards to every show. I trigger the PA700 via MIDI from an old Ensoniq (Avista 7600) keyboard I have because the action on that old Ensoniq is better than the PA700's action. I also plug that old Ensoniq into the inputs of the PA700 so I can use the custom effects I made in a guitar preset that helps bring the sounds to life on the old Ensoniq. More importantly, it allows me to boost the input level of the Ensoniq so that I do not have to turn the balance knob more to the left to get it to match the volume of the internal sounds on the PA700.

I come out of the Ensoniq via MIDI into a 2 port MIDI Thru box so I can trigger the PA700 and my other boards at the same time. I may need to get a 4-port MIDI Thru box in the future, but the 2-Port works well now with 3 boards on stage.

I hope that helps a bit.

Grace,
Harry

[Bill1983]

I am looking for some suggestions of what would be the best and convenient method to use the Pa4X in a live band with a drummer and a bassist
without using the Styles or simply using the Pa4X like a synthesizer without using styles.
Personally I was thinking to make a Set-List for each song (with song's name) that will include 4 keyboard sets assigned to 4 different sounds.

Now my question is what's the suitable mode among the Style Mode, Song Mode or Sequencer Mode for this project?
And am looking for a way to prevent hitting the Start/Stop button accidentally to not trigger a style while performing with a live drummer and a bassist?

Any suggestion is welcome.

Yes, use the styles with the drums & percussion muted. If the drummer can't keep up, find another drummer. The Factory STYLES, as well as the ones you can create on a DAW, are far to good, precise and realistic not to use IMHO as a professional musician for over 50 years. If you aren't going to use them, go buy a Kronos but personally I'd use them.