Yamaha Reface

DmitryKo · Post by **DmitryKo** » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:14 pm

To my ears, the reface DX sounds better than the DX7IID:

reface DX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3PGO_DiuYU

DX7IID
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIn-n2ebENo

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:13 pm

I don't know that I would say one sounds better then the other but they do sound different to my ears. I guess better depends on what your looking for in tone.

aron · Post by **aron** » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:34 am

> To my ears, the reface DX sounds better than the DX7IID

Of course it does, it has effects.
Play the DX7II through effects and it will sound awesome. Everyone I knew played it through an SPX at the time.

DmitryKo · Post by **DmitryKo** » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:53 am

Bertotti wrote:I guess better depends on what your looking for in tone.

Effects, operator feedback, a bit different programming, better internal precision in the TG chip, much better D/A converter - it all makes the reface DX sound more pristine and detailed, with less noise and aliasing. But if you're nostalgic about these imperfections, you can use a "low-fi" effect.

aron wrote:it has effects. Play the DX7II through effects and it will sound awesome.

Here is an A/B comparison of the reface DX vs DX7IID - they turn the effect unit off at 1:20 into the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkASMvica_Q

aron · Post by **aron** » Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:12 pm

WOW, the yes the DX7IIFD sounds better than the reface when effects are off. Anyone that has programmed FM knows how much better 6 op is vs 4 op.
Just a lot more possibilities. They should have made it 6 op especially since they had FM in sound cards and on the $150 board.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:13 pm

Except not every DX7 patch uses ALL 6 ops necessarily. In fact, I think patches which use all 6 ops in some of weirder configurations (i.e. not algorithm 32 which is all 6 of them straight out for organ sounds) are in relative minority. I guess the extra 2 ops are in most cases used for thickening out the sound by artificial chorusing (detuning against the same pair of mod-carrier slightly, say in algorithm 5, for example).

aron · Post by **aron** » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:24 am

The 6 operator Yamaha keyboards always seemed to sound better than the 4 operator ones. Maybe it was programming.... not sure. All I know, is that they did sound better. I had a number of 4 and 6 operator modules/keyboards and the 6 operator ones always sounded better. Sure you could convert 6 operator patches to 4 but the reality is that the "better" keyboards sounded better.

You could add effects and to either one and they sounded better.
When the SY77/99 came out the added effects really helped. I wrote a DX7-SY99 converter that was really good because I got help from an awesome sound programmer and was able to incorporate his tweaks.

In any case, I still wish the reface was 6 operator, but in the end, it doesn't matter since the Kronos IS!

DmitryKo · Post by **DmitryKo** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:50 pm

There is no "better" sound quality for the same 4-operator program when played back on a 6-operator machine. FM operators work like oscillators - additional operators allow new harmonic content or transients such as attack, vibrato, decay, etc. They cannot not really imporve sound quality of existing programs. Programs that use all 6- or 8-operators (and there weren't so many of these) would simply sound noticeably "different" comparing to similar 4-operator programs - not just like a "better", more refined version.

All the difference I can hear in the A/B comparison videos comes from 12/14 bit DAC with lots of noise and aliasing in the DX7/IID vs. pristine 24 bit DAC with 128x oversampling in the reface DX.

aron · Post by **aron** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:56 pm

> There is no "better" sound quality for the same 4-operator program when played back on a 6-operator machine.

Yes, I would add "in theory" of course. In reality, the 4 operator boards and other real-life keyboards did sound worse.

I know people like to say that the DX7 programs were not using all 6 operators, but the programs I used did.

Now the reface probably does sound a lot better due to the effects and better DAC - but I would still take my Centennial DX7IIFD over the reface.

Darkside · Post by **Darkside** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:04 pm

I'm no fm expert of any kind. DX is my first fm synth, but what a nice addition to all those subtractive synths here! No intent to spark any flame wars here, but DX sounds obviously different from the new Volca FM and not just because of those two extra operators on the Volca. Overall sound itself is just completely different. Having full DX7 compatibility the little Volca FM could easily be the gratest thing, but only three voices is obviously not enough for an fm synth. Yes, doing it Volca style is no problem, but for playing over midi you simply can't do anything with sutch little polyphony on an fm engine. As a blind user I also join all those, who don't like the touch interface on the DX, but with little hackery it can become somewhat better to use. I marked out the areas in between the touch sliders with small tape strips, so that I can actually feel the boundries with my fingers. Sometimes it can get confusing on what page in edit or function menu you currently are, but as overall the system is very logical and not massively deep, it's not that much of a problem for a geek like me. So all in all I'm really very sattisfied with the DX. I actually wanted an fm synth for quite some time, but don't have guts to buy older stuff, that might need servicing, as I would need sighted assistance for even as simple thing as changing out internal batteries when they go blank :not battery power, but memory backup batteries on older machines".

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:22 am

Thanks for the valued insight. Could you comment - how do you find the keyboard?

I agree that VolcaFM at three voices is limited for more traditional FM synth playing, but it does have its place in more DJ / EDM orientated setups - it offers that palette of sounds in a very convenient and tweak-able implementation - as well a offering an excellent option for sequencing type sounds; and given it's ability to import traditional DX sounds and then tweak them using its live controls, it means you have access to the world's legacy of thousands and thousands of existing FM programs. It reminds me a bit of the (arguably even better) Yamaha DX200 which sells for very high 2nd hand prices because it is in such demand by the same types of artists the Volca FM is targeted at.

Nevertheless, I agree (from afar and not owning one) that the Reface DX has some lovely innovations of its own and I for one am a big fan of the Reface range.

Darkside · Post by **Darkside** » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:56 pm

Being small keyboards, the ReFace range has actually really good build quality. There's quite alot of metal, no wobble and the keys themselves are not at all bad. Small integrated speakers are no way a joke on these, they can sound pretty loud without distorting. May-be there's some software equalizer in between the synth and the speakers or some kind of physical internal resonances are used to make the sound fuller. Two fx engines are a nice addition here as you can give more room and stereo width to otherwise basically mono sound source, as there's no pan/balance on the DX. The only part on this synth, that is somewhat useless mainly because of the touch interface, is the phrase looper. Yes, I have used the bass sequencer on my Akai Rhythm Wolf to create monofonic loops and sample them afterwards into the Microsampler, but overall using the phrase looper is really inconvinient. If it had a couple of buttons dedicated to control the looper, it would have been easy and fun tool, but as this function is not strictly related to the synth engine, there's not that much of a reason to get angry about it. I haven't used any of my mini keyboards on battery power, as they all have this common limit of about five hours of battery life. That short amount of time doesn't constitute a necessity of polluting the planet with dead batteries. May-be others see it differently and enjoy the battery power, but for me there's actually one more fact against it> as I don't have any light perseption, I won't be able to react to the "low battery" warning and waiting untill the moment of the power going off is not a clever thing to do on user memory equipped devices. Who wants to willingly destroy many hours of hard work?

John Hendry · Post by **John Hendry** » Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:55 am

Davd C. Polich wrote:Meh...you guys can complain all you want about something you'd never buy in the first place.

How about Korg's own "mini-key" products, and Novation's, and Roland's? Those products sell well. That's the target market, gents.

I've had the fortune of seeing these and playing and hearing them. They sound frickin' awesome. Not "tiny". Hook up a full-size 88 key controller if you want to feel like you're playing a "man's" synthesizer.

I can guarantee you, if you get the chance to actually play and hear one of these, you'll at least have to admit, they sound great.

A keyboard that can run on batteries or AC, fits in a laptop bag, has Midi and USB, built-in speakers, and high-quality sound, for around $500. You don't think these will sell? Think again.

Frankly, I hope every manufacturer's products sell well. It's good for the synth industry.

I agree... but I prefer a quality ($) stand alone keyboard (or other) midi controller (paid for once) like the VAX77 rather than paying for average run of the mill keyboards without needed features over and over again. Tiny keyboards with tiny keys are good for testing and creating sounds (not playing them with adult size hands IMO) and work like keyboard rack modules that don't need a rack and let you stack and move them about as you need them where the rear connections are easy to access... that's what I like most about my M50 along with it's sound quality and since I never use it's keys might as well shrink them and lower the weight while reducing the space required.

sohatyi · Post by **sohatyi** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:23 pm

I have the DX and YC. I was testing out the Nord combo organ in a shop next to the YC and my friend noted that the YC sounded amazing.

The DX, with its ability to shape the operators and two simultaneous effects sounds huge. Also, it's a doddle to program.

I'm very happy with them both, especially at the price point (they go for peanuts second hand).

Headphones · Post by **Headphones** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:46 pm

I've noticed they've finally dropped to $399, which must have meant people were just too skeptical for what was given when at full price. I'd only buy the DX reFace and maybe the electric piano one.

I'm going to be getting my Volca FM next month, and I already own a Yamaha DX200. So I'm definitely going to feel "Why not?" when it comes to the reFace DX. If I can find a used EP down the road, that would be sweet too, but just not too concerned on that at the moment.