Back to the FUTURE? KORG pa 4 X.

Bachus · Post by **Bachus** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:18 am

Asena wrote:Hi guys,

I,m really happy to start this .

I think and hope some one from KORG can read this and see what we was expecting from their new Flagship.

KOREA VIETNAM OR ISTANBUL, NO MATTER WHERE WE GO, THIS IS 2015,

If you look at the capability of a Tablet, And what an 7 year old kid can do on that, than why can,t we get better OS, and more on a 4000€ unit.?
400 mb of sample ram!Same sounds,
And realy I did not meant anything to confuse anyone here.

Don,t you guys like to have a KB like Kronos sound engine and style part that is totally NEW?Streaming Sample, Crunchy FX, Fast OS, Fast Processor, Totally New Styles, Audio Style part, Better Guitar Mode better Legato programmings etc?

what i can hear from the demos and movies from net, Its no difference from the old styles, and sounds .For me it sounds like 3 X.

It,s not ok, to make a New KB that comes out after 3 X whit the same things , but some minor differences like multi recording on MP 3 files.

I may not be the best Information, BUT i,m a great Sound programmer, and i need just the feature that gives me free hands on making my sounds.
And some great FX on top of that, Whoolaa You got it!

If you go and listen to their new Guitar sounds,in the net,(NOT NEW) same sound, Whit a really bad vibrato on it, Well, than my sound is far better.

Pls Listen to this sound and compare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAXbLAj7Ryo

My point was never to harm anything on KB forums, I have this people always around me from Turkey, Every time i,m in Istanbul, i,m at KORG there, and YES this people have a chance to tell KORG Italy directly to make things that we miss on the models.
Some ideas and features comes from KORG TURKEY.!
So thats why i believed them, and what i can see now is that KORG is fooling even them,
for a while ago , when KORG PA 2 X was coming out, they promised many new features, And what happened is, NOTHING.

So YES i learned from this, and I will like you all, just sit and wait, Than if it,s worth to check it out, and maybe buy one Than i,m a Korg user, If Not, I will never see at Korg anymore.
The forum is like my family, and i really like you all, I,m gigging every week, and
I know what i can make from 20 mb , Bit also i know how it can sound whit 120MB. So if i really like to make a great sounding Guitar , I need 100 MB of sample ram for it.
I like the feature SoundFont loading on 4X, Not sure but that say can handle that, Than i can make all my sounds on my MAC and move it whit one click to 4X.
But if i got just 400 MB of Sample ram , I can have like 6 Sounds on it from my library.
And that scares me.
So lets see what comes out.
See you all, And Best reg.
Asena

like i said, you have a valid point...

and its not just the limmited sample ram that reminds us of the 20th century..

same goed for the number of Insert effects.. a single insert effect shared by all keyboard parts.. this is 2015, you would expect from a$4000 arranger to have atleast 3 insert effects/ keyboard part..

Or the style engine, no innovations for how long? how long have we been asking for them to make styles more dynamic?

and i can go on and on...

somehow i end up with the feeling that they want to grab our money... well, at the current rate of improvement i think Diki is the only smart one here, upgrafing his arranger like once every 10 years...

Asena · Post by **Asena** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:21 pm

Dear Bachus, You are so right and Belive me i,m really surprised.
After all we have been told them that for 3 Years earlier and Still The same.
Their policy is RECYCLING the Old S....T.

I do not know , But no extras and Pay Extras is not my thing.

EnSoNiQuEs~ · Post by **EnSoNiQuEs~** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:45 pm

Arsena,

I wonder if our existing Pa3x will get an OS upgrade of the Pa4x's new features (that be real nice!), since the hardware layout and the OS are almost the same between the two arrangers.

But unfortunately, because Pa4x is not a great leap forward from Pa3x, they may use the few new features of Pa4x as a carrot to entice users to buy the new Pa4x (those that can afford the latest iteration) and not provide an OS upgrade to current Pa3x users. It will be interesting to see in light of....

Kronos 2 OS 3.0.x being made compatible with prior iterations of KronosX and the original Kronos.

We'll have to wait and see and hope that any new Pa4x OS features will be made available to us, current Pa3x users!

I'd love to recycle my Pa3x for a few more years with new updatest to OS from the Pa4x series

Dikikeys · Post by **Dikikeys** » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:08 pm

If there's ONE thing to take away from all this, it that perhaps those of us that get an insider 'pep talk' from Korg, you treat it with a healthy dose of skepticism in future, and be cautious about 'leaking' it to those whose skepticism index is even lower than yours!

Try to think about it for a minute... WHY are Korg showing you this stuff? I am assuming that you are connected with the dealer network, right?

So, ask yourself, why would Korg want to get dealers fired up about forthcoming product? Why would they want to show you products at a VERY early production stage (not even beta, from all accounts)? What do they have to gain from it?

Compliance. Complacency. Commitment.

Dealers are looking for new product, for profit. Corporations are looking to distract the dealers from the fact they have none. They don't want their dealers looking elsewhere for profit. They don't want them to consider backing off ordering their arrangers, and perhaps looking at other lines. So, they concoct a program of deception... After all, if all goes well, the leaks (they pretty much assume you can't keep your mouths shut!) will keep customers away from their competition, and their dealers salivating at potential profit, and when it all comes crashing down, bottom line is where else can you go anyway?

Sadly, though, I expect the same loose-lipped wannabe prophets will spread the next round of propaganda concocted by the Marketing Division as gospel, in a vain attempt to look 'connected' and 'in the know'. They should take the old saying to heart...

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... "

usaraiya · Post by **usaraiya** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:52 am

I think Diki has got it!

The PA4x, after 5 years, and rumors that promise that it will get up and sing , or maybe one could play it robotically, end up as a small upgrade to the PA3X, not bad, but still , not astounding, similar to the Tyros 4 to T5 upgrade, good, but not earth shattering!

We are all disappointed as we were expecting a monumental transformation of our favorite arranger, which didn't happen. What we got in the Tyros and the PA series was a REASONABLE upgrade, and that is what we will probably receive next, too, so, if we do not raise our expectations, and expect a reasonable upgrade, we will not be disappointed, sounds like rationalization, but, heck, that's all we can do!

Uday

Sam CA · Post by **Sam CA** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:31 am

I don't know if they have a new policy in place, but generally every new keyboard also brings an update or two (not just bug fixes) along the way. PA800/PA2x had some major updates that completely changed the workflow. It was almost like having a brand new instrument FOR ME.

For the time being, the PA4x looks like a better upgrade if you're coming from much older keyboards. Let's have the advanced manual surprise us! If not, then enjoy your current instruments to the fullest. Life is not so bad after all.

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:41 am

I must admit that I thought (HOPED) this model would get me ordering one straight away.
Rumours have always been around and I think Diki has a point here.
Agreed that Retailers and Korg need to survive - to survive = $$$$
If there is "not much more" in the PA4X detailed manuals then Korg may lose out heavily from the current PA3X owners.
When I upgraded from my PA1XPro to PA2XPro I was a little disappointed - don't get me wrong, the PA2XPro was great but not really much greater than the PA1XPro but still different enough to want it.
In fact, when I also caught the dreaded "LED" bug I wished I had kept my PA1XPro but that's a hardware issue.
I am still hopeful that the PA4X details, actual sounds/styles etc… are significantly different (better).
If not, then Korg must already know that they are not going to excite their current loyal PA owners - this would more than justify a nice update to the PA3X - chord sequencer with save/load perhaps.

I am fascinated by Korg's approach to the Kronos - I own the original Kronos and yet, right now it could pass as a new "Kronos 2" - they gave us a complete update to match the new model.
At first I thought this was a mental move but amazingly they are selling the K2 like hot cakes - even to existing KK owners.

Now this would definitely not work for the arrangers - very different market for starters. BUT if Korg want to push out a new, shiny, but no-so-different PA model then it is clearly for new Korg arranger customers.

There must be something in the water as Yamaha do exactly the same - Tyros is like a worn-out record now - I ask - is Korg PA becoming the same (I hope not)?

My ultimate decision and views on the PA4X will only be apparent when I can actually play one and know ALL the facts.
I see its market so far for new Korg owners, owners with PA1X or older, and owners with "smaller" models (e.g. PA300,600).

So, I'd love, at least, some new styles, new sounds, chord sequencer as a PA3X-nice-gesture-update.

Just my current thoughts guys….

Pete

Sorry Sam - posted this at same time as your comments (wasn't copying!!!

)

Dikikeys · Post by **Dikikeys** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:37 pm

karmathanever wrote:So, I'd love, at least, some new styles, new sounds, chord sequencer as a PA3X-nice-gesture-update.

And that's exactly what a PA4X is... you have your wish.

For Korg to take the more practical OS additions and roll them back into the PA3X OS would be financial suicide. I doubt you are going to see that. Has it ever happened on the arranger line before?

You know, guys, there is another side to this coin...

Roland... (no, I'm not baiting you to change, read on!).

Every new Roland series really IS quite a radical departure from the last one. Generally, a LOT of new stuff gets added. But there's a price. A LOT of things get dropped too, and there is little continuity in the operation of the OS. Generally, as a Roland user, you buy the next series arranger, you almost have to start from scratch. Stuff you loved is often gone, the user interface is radically changed, your gig data (especially 'songbook' type Performance Lists or UPS's) no longer work and need recreating, even legacy styles can sound quite different due to some of the legacy kits being changed...

So, that's the other side of the coin. Are you SURE you want radical change?

It's something of a disconnect. We all want the next model to be a radical step forward, but we want as little change to our workflow and familiar playing habits as possible. That's a tough nut for designers to crack. Coming primarily from a Roland background, let me warn you all...

Be careful what you wish for!

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:00 pm

Are you SURE you want radical change?

YES Diki, vey very good question….

Maybe it's a case of admitting that you want the NEW model anyway and need to justify it by being able to say it's a "radical upgrade".
Probably why I have owned all the PA series so far - i.e. I wanted them anyway !!!!

Although still waiting for Korg to produce the details, my head is spinning a bit with this one.
But if cost was not a factor, I would have ordered it already.
So am I constantly contradicting myself to myself? Sadly, yes, but it's all about this "justification".

I just wanna sit down and play the beast for a couple of hours!!!!

Somebody PLEASE send me one!!!!

Pete

Dikikeys · Post by **Dikikeys** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:12 pm

That's why I try to keep to a ten year or so rollover rate. I seldom find there's enough 'radical' to warrant the change. A few new sounds, a few new styles, a couple of handy but hardly earth-shattering OS features, and you want another $3000+ of my money? I don't think so!

I'll tell you what I'm waiting for... More fills. More Variations. Fill-to Same pickups. Better voice leading on chordal parts. Better chord recognition. Better response to what I play in the backing (volume, intensity, note 'busy-ness'). Better recognition of what sounds I use and automatic muting of the same type of sound in the backing. Chord anticipation in the Chord Sequencer (once you lay a CS down, allow certain parts to get the chord fractionally early for arpeggios in the new chord to arrive on the beat, not start on the beat). Better beat matching of audio clips. A modern arpeggiator. An audio looper independent of the arranger engine.

You know... MUSICAL features.

Until we see a generation that embraces better response to what YOU play, it is all very much the same-ol', same-ol'. You know, how long we been stuck in this '4 Variation' rut? About the same length of time we were stuck in the '2 Variation' rut...? Think about how radically going from 2 to 4 changed the arranger realism. Where is the six Variation arranger? Currently, maximum number of fills is six (Roland, Yamaha). Korg stuck with four (and a break/fill), and that's only a recent (PA3X) addition. PA2X was only 2 fills (and the B/F). Where are even the ten fill arrangers? You actually need 16 to do a different fill for all possible source/destinations. Where are simple 'pickup' fills for fill-to-same? Where are the 'vamp' variations? Where is a different break/fill for each Variation (Ketron are the only ones with this essential musical tool)?

There is just so much that remains to be added to the arranger, and much of it is simply 'more of what we have', with little coding needed (but considerable more content). But what do we actually see..?

Precious little to do with moving the arranger forward. But a ton of 'me too' stuff that has next to nothing to do with making the arranger more responsive to us, as players. Of course, maybe that's not as sexy as streaming sample players, or dubious auto conversion of SMF-to-style features (nobody ever went broke duping gullible arranger players!), but these are the ONLY things that actually WOULD radically move the arranger paradigm forward.

But I often have my doubts that the guys designing them actually PLAY them much. Not the way we do, at least. But when you look at it, the features that really moved the arranger forward haven't always been the whizz-bang flashy things. They are the quiet 'under the hood' subtle things that have helped the arranger respond to US, the things that added variety to the backing, that stayed out of the way, and only made the backing better if you had the skills to play well in the first place. But they are what drove the type forward. Imagine a 90's arranger with 21st century sounds... How boring!

It's the basic engine that drives the type, not the sounds and the flash...

So, that's why I seldom have much interest in the 'next' series. Or even the series after that. As lazy, as disconnected from what real PLAYERS want (even if they don't know that's what they really want!) as the manufacturers are, it usually takes ten years or more before they stumble accidentally on something that really DOES make a real difference.

So.... no hurry! What we have is doing the job adequately. Why not wait for something that does the job RADICALLY better?

usaraiya · Post by **usaraiya** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:50 am

I completely agree with the 10 year cycle, that Diki suggests, to get the most "bang for the buck", but I may have a better solution to get all the new upgrades at not so hefty a price.

What I have doing since the PA1X was released, to get the new models when released, is to immediately put up my KB on Ebay lower than what the ones are listed for, and take the best offer. It sells quite fast, and usually I have to pay about $1000 more for the new one! It works like a leased car, you get the latest model when released, and you don't have to wait for 10 years, and plan on a grand for the upgrade, not bad, eh?

Something to think about!

Uday

Bachus · Post by **Bachus** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:29 pm

usaraiya wrote:I completely agree with the 10 year cycle, that Diki suggests, to get the most "bang for the buck", but I may have a better solution to get all the new upgrades at not so hefty a price.

What I have doing since the PA1X was released, to get the new models when released, is to immediately put up my KB on Ebay lower than what the ones are listed for, and take the best offer. It sells quite fast, and usually I have to pay about $1000 more for the new one! It works like a leased car, you get the latest model when released, and you don't have to wait for 10 years, and plan on a grand for the upgrade, not bad, eh?

Something to think about!

Uday

10 years...

meaning that everyone owning a PA1x, Tyros2, G70 is up for an update..

There is however a huge group of Yamaha people that allways skip one generation..

This would mean for poeple with a PA2x or Tyros3 that its time to update.. (Roland has not really regular updates to their lines)

Dikikeys · Post by **Dikikeys** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:01 pm

Yep... I went G1000 (ten years+), G70 (ten years), BK-9 (two years and counting).

Each of these was a very significant upgrade, basically a no-brainer. Given the dead end that much of the V/VA series was (VariPhrase died the death pretty quickly!), it seems that I was wise to skip those models between the G1000 and the G70. And Roland took so long to bring out a new series, it was basically close to ten years between the G70 and the BK-9 anyway!

In fairness, they brought out several low end models first (BK-7m, BK-5, BK-3), but it was close to ten between the TOTL G70 and the BK-9. Well done, Roland, saving me from a hard decision!

(Disclaimer... I did buy a BK-7m, but that was primarily to be an advanced sound module for my keytar rig, I don't use it as an arranger to gig with)

Generally, you look at any arranger line at ten year intervals, the difference is night and day, so probably worth the move. Smaller increments, not so much!

BTW, even if you only pay about $1000 between selling the old one and buying the new, you skip two models and you have saved at least half the cost of the new one. So just think of it as getting a brand new arranger at 50% off! And one that actually IS a big jump forward...

DonM · Post by **DonM** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:29 pm

Crap Diki, I'm 72. May not LIVE 10 more years. Gimme some new stuff NOW.
Oh wait, I already HAVE new stuff.

DonM

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:09 am

+1

There would be no point in being totally keyboard-technology-obsessed would there?
I have no intention of admitting to or attempting to cure my gear acquisition syndrome.

I relate myself to those who have to have the latest iPhone