Any duplicate sounds in stock Kronos?

theshinenz · Post by **theshinenz** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:07 am

Hey Guys,

I finally got another KX73, forgot how good they were, I recall last time I had one I ran out of user banks pretty quickly so am wanting to be careful with how I set things up from day one.

My K73 has the latest OS3.0.2 and am wondering are there any user banks that contain duplicates of the INT banks I can clear out?

Also which user bank(s) are best to use for my own edited sounds? I'll want one EXi bank and one HD-1 bank and also want to load third party sounds in.

Whats the best plan of attack? Just bought sharps d50 bank hoping to fill the gap where my Roland FA-08 was strong with those type of sounds, will now be looking for a decent soundset with hook/supersaw dance sounds.

Cheers
Scott

StephenKay · Post by **StephenKay** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:32 am

Having just been involved in working on a new update for KARMA Kronos Software, and worrying about supporting the different program orders that are now floating around, this is what I can tell you:

Original Kronos Factory Programs:
I-A
I-B
I-C
I-D
I-E
I-F
U-A
U-B
U-C
U-D
U-E
U-F

Kronos X Factory Programs:
Same as above, plus:
U-AA *contains preloaded programs for demo of EXs10,11,12,13
U-BB *contains preloaded programs for demo of EXs10,11,12,13
U-CC *contains preloaded programs for demo of EXs10,11,12,13

If you plan on getting the KRS-07 Sound Pack 3.0, then the two new banks of programs for that go in:

Original Kronos:
U-AA
U-BB

Kronos X:
U-DD
U-EE

In both original Kronos and Kronos X, bank U-G is open (unused).

The KRS-07 files come with two versions, one for the original Kronos and one for the Kronos-X. Assuming you have a Kronos-X and don't want the EXs10,11,12 or 13, then you could conceivably load the file for the original Kronos (thereby using U-AA and U-BB instead of U-DD and U-EE).

Therefore, I can try to summarize:

Original Kronos: open banks:
U-G
U-AA
U-BB
U-CC
U-DD
U-EE
U-FF
U-GG

Original Kronos with KRS-07: open banks:
U-G
U-CC
U-DD
U-EE
U-FF
U-GG

Kronos-X (with demos): open banks:
U-G
U-DD
U-EE
U-FF
U-GG

Kronos-X (with demos) and KRS-07: open banks:
U-G
U-FF
U-GG

If you get rid of the demos of EXs10,11,12,13 (U-AA, U-BB, U-CC), then Kronos-X could be same as original Kronos.

Now, to try to answer your other question: there are no banks that are complete duplicates of other banks. Bank I-A is kind of a "best of" collection, and as such, has some new unique programs, and then some selected programs from the other EXi banks. But these selected programs that are duplicates are sprinkled around the other EXi banks and there's no easy way to remove them.

Hope that helps (somewhat).

EDIT: I hope I got that right!

theshinenz · Post by **theshinenz** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:37 am

Hi Stephen,

Exactly what I was after, great to see quality developers like yourself still supporting the Kronos, one of the reasons for coming back to using Korg after a while away.

Thanks again,

Scott

StephenKay · Post by **StephenKay** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:47 am

PS. Looks like more banks are needed!

I often wondered why Korg made it so that Button I-A + Button U-A = U-AA, Button I-B + Button U-B = U-BB, etc. I guess it might have been for ease of selecting with one hand.

But you could have:

Button I-A + Button U-A = U-AA
Button I-A + Button U-B = U-AB
Button I-A + Button U-C = U-AC
Button I-A + Button U-D = U-AD
Button I-A + Button U-E = U-AE
Button I-A + Button U-F = U-AF
Button I-A + Button U-G= U-AG

Button I-B + Button U-A = U-BA
Button I-B + Button U-B = U-BB
Button I-B + Button U-C = U-BC
Button I-B + Button U-D = U-BD
Button I-B + Button U-E = U-BE
Button I-B + Button U-F = U-BF
Button I-B + Button U-G= U-BG

Button I-C + Button U-A = U-CA
Button I-C + Button U-B = U-CB ... etc.

Instead of 7 extra banks, you could have 7 x 7 = 49 extra program banks. Ah... that pesky memory usage thing.

Well, who knows - it could still be a plan.

theshinenz · Post by **theshinenz** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:45 am

I wondered if they would do that at some stage, can always use more banks to fill up

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:57 am

StephenKay wrote:Having just been involved in working on a new update for KARMA Kronos Software, and worrying about supporting the different program orders that are now floating around, this is what I can tell you:

... <program> ....

Thanks Stephen,
this is really helpful information!

that got me thinking, are you considering a function in the KARMA software to save combis for a specific kronos version, where the software does the remapping of factory programs in the combi?

Now we have the situation that you can't create combis on a kronos 1 or X and share them on the kronos 2 and vica versa. How are you dealing with this problem for your combis?

StephenKay · Post by **StephenKay** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:31 am

QuiRobinez wrote:that got me thinking, are you considering a function in the KARMA software to save combis for a specific kronos version, where the software does the remapping of factory programs in the combi?

Now we have the situation that you can't create combis on a kronos 1 or X and share them on the kronos 2 and vica versa. How are you dealing with this problem for your combis?

I wrote my own combi conversion routine in my debug version of the software, that converts from original order to new Kronos 2 order. The problem is, it's down n' dirty and would take a bunch of work to make it a releasable feature. People usually don't understand, but the difference between writing some code that you can use just yourself to accomplish a quick task, and testing and releasing a feature that does all sorts of error checking and handling of all the weird situations that people are likely to throw at it is huge. I don't know that it's justified for the two or three people that would use it

, but I'll take a look into it. I agree it would be useful to have a conversion feature like that available to other users.

To answer your other question, I have therefore made new versions of our combi sound sets, now with two different files in each set - one for the original program order, and one for the Kronos 2 program order.

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:21 am

StephenKay wrote:I wrote my own combi conversion routine in my debug version of the software, that converts from original order to new Kronos 2 order. The problem is, it's down n' dirty and would take a bunch of work to make it a releasable feature. People usually don't understand, but the difference between writing some code that you can use just yourself to accomplish a quick task, and testing and releasing a feature that does all sorts of error checking and handling of all the weird situations that people are likely to throw at it is huge. I don't know that it's justified for the two or three people that would use it , but I'll take a look into it. I agree it would be useful to have a conversion feature like that available to other users.

i fully understand, i agree with you, the amount of potential users of this feature is way to small to justify the time you need to spent on it. I make these kind of decisions all the time too, if i have a feeling that not many users are going to use it i cancel the thing i'm working on, or just create a version for personal use.

StephenKay wrote: To answer your other question, I have therefore made new versions of our combi sound sets, now with two different files in each set - one for the original program order, and one for the Kronos 2 program order.

yes, that's probably the best way.
i thought about creating a custom program bank for each combi collection where i copied the factory programs in, so that every user has the same program order setup for the combis which makes support thousend times easier. But creating seperate files is probably more convenient for the end user. That's why i really liked the program setup information you gave in your previous post

G-Rod · Post by **G-Rod** » Tue May 05, 2015 4:27 pm

Thanks for that great info Mr Kay, - how does the Kronos2 Voice mapping compare to the original Kronos and the KronosX mappings that you have listed?

Unfortunately, not even Korg goes as far as you do. I purchased EXs16 Funk and Soul Brass, and Korg STILL does not have a file for K2 owners. So if I want to hear Combis from that package, I have to load the KronosX auto load...

I personally think more people would use a combi conversion routine than you think. Unless I'm missing something, it would seem that at least every K2 owner would benefit from it? In any event, if Korg had an interest in support, they would do it or offer files for each board's configuration...

Thanks for your time and information in advance!

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Wed May 06, 2015 10:02 am

If you download the file KronosV2toV3Rules.txt in http://pcgtools.mkspace.nl/download.php you can see which program map from the 'old' to the new Kronos (2, V3) PCG file.

Also if you use PCG Tools (download for free on same page), you load a PCG file, and use the List Generator, list type Difference List to see if there are copies or almost copies of programs/combis etc in your file.

G-Rod · Post by **G-Rod** » Wed May 06, 2015 12:28 pm

Thanks for the speedy info michel,

I'll give the .txt file a look.

PCG Tools looks very interesting but I use Apple computers and while its great that PCG Tools is free, - I would have to purchase Parallels as well as purchase and re-learn Windows... That's not a viable option for me. I'd MUCH rather spend that time/energy learning news tunes, creating patches for those tunes, developing licks, or hell, I'd even prefer to run scales to that mess, lol!

In the mean time, I'll wait to see if/when Korg decides to support it's brand new product with this sample collection. Maybe they'll surprise us with a newer version of Funk and Soul Brass with larger/better samples for K2 and NOT re-charge those that already purchased the original. Positive thinking or naiveté, we'll see!

Thanks again. Any insight Mr Kay?
G

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Wed May 06, 2015 12:44 pm

michelkeijzers wrote:If you download the file KronosV2toV3Rules.txt in http://pcgtools.mkspace.nl/download.php you can see which program map from the 'old' to the new Kronos (2, V3) PCG file.

Also if you use PCG Tools (download for free on same page), you load a PCG file, and use the List Generator, list type Difference List to see if there are copies or almost copies of programs/combis etc in your file.

that's indeed the only alternative there is at the moment, however, the v2tov3rules text file isn't correct at the moment, the actual sound locations are different on the kronos 2 itself (for instance check the stereo choir program location), so you have to create conversion scripts seperately for each project you do. The way i use it now is to write down each program location i use in a combi and then create the conversion script for that combi and modify it with pcg tools.

@micheal, is there a way to quickly remap the drum tracks in kronos 1 and x program soundsets ? Not the conversion utility is disabled for program sets, it would be nice if those were also be able to modify them with your remapping tool.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Thu May 07, 2015 10:01 am

QuiRobinez wrote:
michelkeijzers wrote:If you download the file KronosV2toV3Rules.txt in http://pcgtools.mkspace.nl/download.php you can see which program map from the 'old' to the new Kronos (2, V3) PCG file.

Also if you use PCG Tools (download for free on same page), you load a PCG file, and use the List Generator, list type Difference List to see if there are copies or almost copies of programs/combis etc in your file.
that's indeed the only alternative there is at the moment, however, the v2tov3rules text file isn't correct at the moment, the actual sound locations are different on the kronos 2 itself (for instance check the stereo choir program location), so you have to create conversion scripts seperately for each project you do. The way i use it now is to write down each program location i use in a combi and then create the conversion script for that combi and modify it with pcg tools.

@micheal, is there a way to quickly remap the drum tracks in kronos 1 and x program soundsets ? Not the conversion utility is disabled for program sets, it would be nice if those were also be able to modify them with your remapping tool.

I would have to recheck the file ... I got the original from Korg, but optimized it myself to be used in PCG Tools. I haven't checked any actual locations myself though.

You also can make a list of what programs are being used by what combi (not sure it that will help you in your case; I would need a bit more explanation).

I don't do anything specific for drum sets, except handle it like a regular program (but not sure if you mean that or the internal sounds of a drum set). Also here I would need some more explanation to know what you like to have exactly.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Thu May 07, 2015 10:03 am

G-Rod wrote:Thanks for the speedy info michel,

I'll give the .txt file a look.

PCG Tools looks very interesting but I use Apple computers and while its great that PCG Tools is free, - I would have to purchase Parallels as well as purchase and re-learn Windows... That's not a viable option for me. I'd MUCH rather spend that time/energy learning news tunes, creating patches for those tunes, developing licks, or hell, I'd even prefer to run scales to that mess, lol!

Thanks again. Any insight Mr Kay?
G

You are absolutely right that making music is much nicer than learning a new OS ... I thought there were also Windows emulators which are free, but even than, a little knowledge is needed to use such an emulator (no experience myself). Installing PCG Tools itself is a matter of less than one minute though.

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Thu May 07, 2015 11:55 am

michelkeijzers wrote: I would have to recheck the file ... I got the original from Korg, but optimized it myself to be used in PCG Tools. I haven't checked any actual locations myself though.

You also can make a list of what programs are being used by what combi (not sure it that will help you in your case; I would need a bit more explanation).

yes , the file isn't correct at the moment, i'm working on it to make it correct but that takes some time.

If you want to check it yourself, just download the angels choir combi on my site, and try to convert the Version 1 PCG file with it, you will see that none of the programs used are pointing to the right new location since the final Kronos 2 program order is different then the ones assumed in the conversion script.

michelkeijzers wrote: I don't do anything specific for drum sets, except handle it like a regular program (but not sure if you mean that or the internal sounds of a drum set). Also here I would need some more explanation to know what you like to have exactly.

What i ment was, that converting program soundsets isn't allowed at the moment. That makes sense, but every program uses a Drumtrack which points to the wrong location if you load it on a kronos 2. It would be great if the drumtrack reference that is used in the program would be modified by the new location through the conversion script.

I really think that conversion script is a fantastic tool by the way