A new type of Kronos crash?

[timg11]

Yesterday I was rehearsing on the Kronos X at my church (which came with OS 2.1.1). While I was playing, I heard a burst of strange sound, then silence. I looked at the screen and it was blank except for a line of text that said "A serious error has occurred. Please turn off the power for 10 seconds".

Has anyone else seen this? The sound reminded me of the sound that Windows PCs used to make in the 1990s when audio was still new, and the OS crashed while playing. One block of audio would play for a second or so, making a strange tone, before the Blue Screen appeared.

After I rebooted, everything seemed to be OK, but now I'm wondering if it is going to happen again? Is this is a sign of a failing motherboard or something serious?

[GregC]

Yesterday I was rehearsing on the Kronos X at my church (which came with OS 2.1.1). While I was playing, I heard a burst of strange sound, then silence. I looked at the screen and it was blank except for a line of text that said "A serious error has occurred. Please turn off the power for 10 seconds".

Has anyone else seen this? The sound reminded me of the sound that Windows PCs used to make in the 1990s when audio was still new, and the OS crashed while playing. One block of audio would play for a second or so, making a strange tone, before the Blue Screen appeared.

After I rebooted, everything seemed to be OK, but now I'm wondering if it is going to happen again? Is this is a sign of a failing motherboard or something serious?

my iPad did something similar when exposed to direct sunlight in the car, on a warm day

i would check for unusual heat and your fan

when ready, you should install 3.0.2

[danmusician]

Also, get a UPS - uninterruptible power supply. I had my Kronos spontaneously reboot once during a church service back in 2011. Our church had notoriously finicky AC. Got a UPS, haven't had a problem since.

[ronnfigg]

If you feel confident enough to do it, open your Kronos and check that the RAM is fully seated and that the SSD connections are also fully seated.

[PCFREE]

And check to see if your fan is working!

[Derek Cook]

Yesterday I was rehearsing on the Kronos X at my church (which came with OS 2.1.1). While I was playing, I heard a burst of strange sound, then silence. I looked at the screen and it was blank except for a line of text that said "A serious error has occurred. Please turn off the power for 10 seconds".

Has anyone else seen this? The sound reminded me of the sound that Windows PCs used to make in the 1990s when audio was still new, and the OS crashed while playing. One block of audio would play for a second or so, making a strange tone, before the Blue Screen appeared.

After I rebooted, everything seemed to be OK, but now I'm wondering if it is going to happen again? Is this is a sign of a failing motherboard or something serious?

I had this in the studio a month or so back, and I can only hope it was due to a power glitch. I was playing a Song at the time. For stage use, I have an APS UPS that gives me 30 minutes of backup power and line filtering. When I researched buying the Kornos (and found this forum) this a fundamental recommendation that popped up a lot due to the 2.5 minute boot time (compared to my EX5 starting in about 5 seconds). So, a high recommended essential addition to my gig rig.

[John Hendry]

Also, get a UPS - uninterruptible power supply. I had my Kronos spontaneously reboot once during a church service back in 2011. Our church had notoriously finicky AC. Got a UPS, haven't had a problem since.

I would certainly have to agree. I have seen what non-standard out of spec AC can do to computers. We take the AC we feed our microchips for granted, but outside of another coming HEMP from the Sun it's our worst enemy and my Kronos was plugged into unbalanced unfiltered AC once when I picked it up at GC to test it and even then I brought an ISOBAR line conditioner to be safe as GC has a lot of stuff feeding harmonics back into the AC and it was turned on there for less than 10 minutes with one reboot just to make sure it worked. An amazing piece of machinery... won't ever risk it's health to harmonics in the AC. IMO if it lasts and works without error past 30 days then your machine is probably healthy and well within the design spec and when it breaks down if its a failed chip it's because an unusual harmonic got to it when something on the same transformer got turned on so it was broken and didn't fail of its own accord.

Whenever I get something of value with microchips in it that's been shipped because I've seen static electricity build up even in humid Hawaii and DOAs on the receiving end of shipping working electronics I also ground myself and remove any static charge from the box and shipping foam first as well as the surface of the keyboard before taking it out of the box and if I feel static electricity was present I don't touch the AC input until I ground the ground with an AC cord that only has the 3rd ground pin working before taking it out of the box and foam. If it's a new Korg keyboard it's standard practice;-) Think how many times you've noticed a static buildup in boxes that were shipped. If something is shipped air in cheap non-antistatic "popcorn" pellets turn off the lights and run your hands through it and you might see what I'm talking about. Static electricity and AC harmonics become a bigger threat with every new generation of better but smaller die size chips and although huge advances have been made in the power supplies static electricity and the threat of harmonics in the AC remain.

[yatrg]

I bought a Kronos X 61 on Black Friday. I have been slowly setting it up to replace my Extreme (which replaced my Triton Studio with replaced my Triton...). Aside from the fact that the Cue list is not there (which I am sure has been talked about...) I also have experienced the crash. First time was at home on a non grounded outlet, so I let it go, but it happened on a gig on Sunday. Combine that with a 3+ minute start up time - which felt like 10 years - and I have lost all confidence. I gigged 80-100 times a year with my Extreme since the day it came out (my serial number is 3 digits...) and never had a problem. But even if it never crashes again, I can't have that stress that it "might" on every gig.

Additionally, some internal processor just can't keep up. I am sending 7 tracks of midi data in through either the midi in, or the usb midi and playing a VL70M with a breath controller and the keyboard midi out. The midi out lags. Audibly. I feel it in my playing and hear it. It just can't keep up. And I can't play like that. The Extreme had no trouble with the exact same setup. So, as much as I love the sounds and 12 insert effects, I am taking it back. With a broken heart.

[John Hendry]

I also have experienced the crash. First time was at home on a non grounded outlet, so I let it go, but it happened on a gig on Sunday. Combine that with a 3+ minute start up time - which felt like 10 years - and I have lost all confidence.

Brother no offence but why would you ever plug a new Kronos into an ungrounded outlet? This is why I never buy used equipment or accept equipment that may have been returned. You may have let it go... but some chip that was damaged may disagree with you. If you think that outlet can cause a problem that might cause a crash... what would cause that? An electrical disturbance sever enough to cause a crash may very well be enough to cause internal damage as well.

The newer the model the smaller the die size of the chips used is often the case and the smaller the die size the less heat produced but also the less harmonic over voltage required to damage it. I run my rig off filtered balanced AC and have never had anything break... but before with bad AC it was a nightmare even using Isobar filters. All it takes is one wrong harmonic shaped like the right tuning fork and kiss a chip goodbye. I've seen every mouse in a neighborhood fail at the same time but nothing else affected. Here's another guy's experience from Tom's Hardware but I cut out most as it was really long and just highlighted his experiences.

"Can an ungrounded power line damage computer components & networking devices? My answer: Some people say probably not, but I say yes definitely it can over a period of time!" "I had my computer unknowingly plugged into an ungrounded outlet" "computer died one morning.... found out that my motherboard and power supply needed to be replaced." "I still didn't know the electrical outlet was ungrounded!! It was only last week that I heard light popping sounds coming from inside my computer! I knew the sounds were unusual so I opened the computer case while the computer was running. When I leaned my forearm against the computer chassis I felt tingling on my arm!" "moved my computer equipment, TV and components to that (grounded) outlet. Guess what happened next? The popping sounds stopped completely, been a week so far and when I put my forearm now against the computer chassis I no longer felt a tingle!" "I believe static electricity builds-up inside the computer chassis possibly from cooling fans and who knows what. When the current has no-where to go I think that's when damage to components begins possibly?" "As to myself I will never again plug my computers, monitors, components and TV equipment into an ungrounded outlet! To me doing so would only lead to component damage if not failure over time."

Using newer equipment on an ungrounded outlet may not put you at much risk but if you have any issues with your AC it will put your equipment at risk IMO based on seeing packed repair departments with a 6 month waiting list. The Kronos is a computer and quite a bit more and needs clean grounded AC within specs to function without being damaged and it sounds like your Kronos may have had exposure to two locations with poor AC so it crashed. "Gig's" often have very poor AC and if you'd knowingly plug it into an ungrounded outlet at home you may accept having it worse elsewhere.

Your Roland VL70M is not only one of the best sounding pieces Roland ever came out with IMO it's also bullet proof compared to newer electronics with micro chips in use and the Triton too to a lessor degree. Roland used a 2 prong plug as I recall on the VL70 and Korg has always used three and that ground should be in use and not be lifted and treated as an analog amp humming from a ground loop. If I had a VL70 I'd still treat it like a million bucks and you might want to try using it on Balanced AC to hear what it can really sound like. After than you may gain an appreciation for clean AC .

As for the midi issue... LOL all I can say is people get what they pay for and if the manufactures can get away with selling DVDs to people with 1080p HD widescreen TVs with the new TV's hardware already well past Blue Ray resolution then they will keep selling DVDs. When the VAX77 died I'm afraid it took the new midi standard needed with it.

[yatrg]

Thank you for the informative response. However, if I hear you right, in a nutshell, my new $2.5k keyboard can't process midi data as fast as my 9 year old board, and it is much too sensitive to be out on gigs (and still does not have a cue list. ). So effectively, I upgraded my workhorse for a prima donna. I am debating trading it in for a new one, and buying a Furman. Well - I will buy the Furman regardless - just to see if my VL70M really sounds any different with a cleaner power. However, having a device that is so sensitive makes me very nervous...If some guy walks by on a carpeted floor, shuffles his feet and touches my keyboard - Boom.

[SanderXpander]

Go for a UPS, not just a power conditioner. My Kronos has been really stable with one and I have had a few times when the power was cut on stage during a soundcheck or something, I've been very happy with it.

[John Hendry]

Thank you for the informative response. However, if I hear you right, in a nutshell, my new $2.5k keyboard can't process midi data as fast as my 9 year old board, and it is much too sensitive to be out on gigs (and still does not have a cue list. ). So effectively, I upgraded my workhorse for a prima donna. I am debating trading it in for a new one, and buying a Furman. Well - I will buy the Furman regardless - just to see if my VL70M really sounds any different with a cleaner power. However, having a device that is so sensitive makes me very nervous...If some guy walks by on a carpeted floor, shuffles his feet and touches my keyboard - Boom.

Please excuse my poor memory, should have said your Yamaha VL70 is one of the best sounding modules not Roland and you have the VL70M, not the VL70 and just looked it up to see what the midi implementation on it is. I'll add something I found to the end of this after finding it. It's not that the KronosX can't process midi as fast to my knowledge, it's just limited by a midi standard that came about when the midi equipment was far more limited in what resources it would pull out of the midi standard. My first MPU401 card connecting the midi interface to a PC was put in an Intel 286 "rocket ship" when having 16 voice polyphony was considered a lot. I don't know your setup well enough to say "why" but as I recall the modeling in the VL70M was very demanding and why I got two OASYS PCI cards when Korg stated no computer was fact enough to do what the OASYS PCI card could do. It too was an amazing sounding piece of equipment but at the time past most people's ability to deal with it's potential, a great loss IMO and a shame Korg did not continues it's needed driver support so don't I support all that Korg does as that was unacceptable IMO. (paid $1,500 for first one.. and now it's just a fancy door stop... ERRR!)

There are people here far more qualified than myself regarding the Kronos and it's midi implementation recording but I know from my own use I have heard unacceptable delays you mentioned long before the Kronos came out when adding voices and other requirements to the system. My Fatar 2001 has 4 midi outs/ins to help out and before you give up you might want to consider something like the DMC MX-8 midi patch bay/processor you can get dirt cheap online, or something newer. I'd ask some of the advanced users found here what they are doing about it. I found there always ends up being a timing issue mixing Roland with Korg, etc especially going past 5 or 6 modules without using a processor patch bay. The original midi standard issue is another reason I believe the manufactures first left out Poly AT, and then were comfortable later on as the voices became more complex even leaving out CH AT on 1K+ keyboards as the midi system in use is outdated. So I wouldn't blame the KronosX (that has a faster processor that the Kronos) for exposing the weakness in the midi system. However I can't say that you may not be right without research on the KronosX and how it processes midi as I never looked into it, but as far as receiving midi I noticed no delay using Poly AT with it but I wasn't using the sequencer or placing any other midi demands on it.

I just found this on the VL70M: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan98/a ... /vl70m.htm

"Some instruments you swear by, while others you swear at, but with Yamaha's VL70m it boils down to a bit of each. By combining the VL70's physical modelling with breath control you can create some of the most realistic and musically articulate synthetic wind sounds available at any price, but there's a serious fly in the ointment. For some reason that even Yamaha UK can't figure out, the Japanese designers of the VL70m optimized it for live use, but it never seems to have crossed their minds that anyone would use it with a sequencer. Of course, the VL70m is a pretty regular MIDI module in most respects, so using it with a sequencer is straightforward enough -- unless you want to use the breath controller.

THE PROBLEM

The problem is that the breath controller is built into the module itself, and any breath control data is merged with any note data present at the output. If you put the VL70m on your sequencer output with all your other modules, the breath controller data isn't recorded, whereas if you connect your VL70m between your master keyboard and your sequencer input, the breath controller data is recorded, but now there's no way to play the sequence back via the module. Try as you might to get around this problem, the outcome is that you can't have the VL70m connected so that it allows you to both record breath controller data and play back sequences without setting up a MIDI loop -- with the usual consequences. Those lateral thinkers with programmable MIDI patchbays that also include selective data filtering can probably dig their way out of this problem, but for the rest of us there are a couple of simple alternatives."

OK now my memory is coming back as I helped a guy fix that using a midi patch bay with a Roland sampler that was a great sounding piece too. I'd still like to get the original VL70 and have bid on them before but lost the biding. The article mentions a wiring diagram you may want to look at on page 230. But if I were you I'd... WOW I'll PM you.

You said: "If some guy walks by on a carpeted floor, shuffles his feet and touches my keyboard - Boom." That is a reality that applies to any micro chip but with the ground working and the parts inside the case that is not going to harm them. But it's true every improvement and reduction in chip size requires more care regarding AC harmonics and static electricity and why you should always ground yourself working with modern electronics.

As for the Furman I would highly recommend looking into an Equitech (http://www.equitech.com/products/rack/sonofqpro.html) balanced isolation supply as well. Sometimes Martin sells units that have a slight hum in the transformer not picked up by the AC and I have had two Furman IT1220s that both hummed when harmonics were present in the AC but did not affect the AC output, and in fact that is what alerted me to the cause of the hum in my John Bowers Active One speakers and other equipment in use and let me "work" with my electric company to fix the problem. I can tell you from experience if you have a high level of harmonics in your AC running on balanced AC is like upgrading to better equipment and is quite noticeable and you can see the improvement on a high-end TV . I have a 20 amp system but is weighs over 70 lbs and all you need is a 10 amp although the bigger the transformer the better it acts as a supply unit.

[John Hendry]

Hay guys it's been so long since I looked into the Yamaha modeling synths I forgot the VL1 rev 2 was the one I was looking for and the m was the rack series. They are really hard to find and cost is high. But I found this on EBay and PMed yatrg but it's what he already has... if real it's a great deal IMO. There are 14 people watching but it's offered as buy it now. With case rack, power supply, and another older module that was reasonable back in the day equal to Roland U220 some say which is dated but still clean sounding and why I kept mine to mix in but MU80 has analog inputs so still worth $50-75 at least I'd think. I'd be careful and check the seller out first, but I do see legitimate deals like this come around and this this is a great deal with the extras IMO for anyone in AU due to the weight and shipping costs in the rack case...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0 ... amaha+vl70
YAMAHA VL 70 WITH MU80 SYNTH MODULES WITH RACK MOUNT POWER SUPPLY & RACK
VL70 USUALLY USED WITH WX5 WIND CONTROLLER.
$567.13 Buy It Now

[yatrg]

John - The thing that is killing me about the delay is that my setup is exactly the same as when I use my Extreme - I just replaced the Extreme with the Kronos. And there was no delay with the Extreme. Also, the sequence data comes in the midi in from the laptop and the Vl70M is connected to the midi out so the only data going out should be my playing on the keys and controllers. Unless, maybe, is there a setting to send the midi to the midi out on the Kronos? I will have to go look that up.
Just for kicks, I brought the sequence into the Kronos and played it internally (i.e. - no midi in), and now there is no delay. So it is not the main CPU - it is the midi i/o.

[John Hendry]

John - The thing that is killing me about the delay is that my setup is exactly the same as when I use my Extreme - I just replaced the Extreme with the Kronos. And there was no delay with the Extreme. Also, the sequence data comes in the midi in from the laptop and the Vl70M is connected to the midi out so the only data going out should be my playing on the keys and controllers. Unless, maybe, is there a setting to send the midi to the midi out on the Kronos? I will have to go look that up.
Just for kicks, I brought the sequence into the Kronos and played it internally (i.e. - no midi in), and now there is no delay. So it is not the main CPU - it is the midi i/o.

I wish I had a VI70 to duplicate the issue as you reminded me of how good the breath controller sounded. Keep thinking about the one on EBay in AU as looks like it was always run using the power supply included with the hard case/rack and probably in great internal condition.

It must be something simple if you had no issue with the Triton. You don't have "local on" turned on do you? Something is using up resources and first thought I had was to check local on/off since you are using an external sequencer. But get it straightened out as you can do some amazing stuff adding the VL70 to the Kronos. Sure would be nice if Yamaha redid the VL series like Korg did the Wave Drum but I think they all know MIDI is getting outdated and avoiding the next big step needed and marketing risks. But it should be able to handle what you are doing.