How many Wav Samples required in sampling 4 very real sound?

rock_star · Post by **rock_star** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:54 pm

Hi to all,

I need here expert opinion from Gurus of this forum like Anthony, Sharp etc.. because different suggestions leads you to variety of knowledge.

1)How many wav samples (6,10,14 etc...?) do I need for very authentic and real sound close to original one? and what are the least quantity?

2)What notes (C3, E4, G5...etc?)are required to be sampled for more genuine result? and what notes are necessary to be sampled?

Thanks

jimsweb · Post by **jimsweb** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:36 am

the bare minimum - just C and G

AntonySharmman · Post by **AntonySharmman** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:33 am

This subject is really a "pain" to be explained under simple user's perspective since there are many sonic timbres
and parameters of sound of native instrument we want to sample !
For instance it's very easy to mention that the obvious genuine result is sampling per semitone for all native & electronic
instruments , but in many cases you just waste your Ram space which is the most precious feature in our sample
keyboards ,especially for those that do not stream samples from HD/SSD !

I'll categorize sampling workflow according to kind of instruments you want to sample.

- Analog or electronic waveforms or synths without LFOs & modulation.
A simple waveform like sine/square/triangle/trapezoid is proportionally altered in pitch curve so even one C3 sample is enough to reproduce
the waveform in lower sample rates , also an average analog synth sound with no more than 2 octaves harmonics can be sampled
sufficiently per two notes per octave
Where to start ? neither the lower nor the higher note per range just the intermediate , for instance for an area C2 - C3
of a synth sound that 2 samples are required , use Eb2 & A2.

- Brass - woodwinds
If sampled without native vibrato then sampling per 2 tones is convenient , beginning with the closest to lowest instrument's note.

- Cl.Guitars - GRD Pianos - OUD - Bouzuki ect ...
These native acoustic instruments do not consist only of fundamental note we intent to sample but also from a body instrument sound that is always
present with the actual note of the instrument that can't be separated and also can't be transposed even for one semitone ,'cause sound will be fake !
These instruments must only be sampled per semitone due to preserve their original character when played on keyboard.

The same must be done for any complex sound that contains a lot of octaves/harmonics , or has many modulation effects
like sampling a sophisticated omnisphere "moving" pad with plenty of harmonics and multiple frequency modulators.

This is the minimum I can write down to give you an idea !

Thoraldus · Post by **Thoraldus** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:50 am

Excellent advice Antony!

Pa3XDK · Post by **Pa3XDK** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:52 pm

+1 - That's actually pretty well explained, yes...

rock_star · Post by **rock_star** » Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:07 pm

Mr.Antony thanks for your detailed and rapid reply. I am in a learning process of sampling and my target is to sample Roland Bells sounds and some vintage pads of M1 like Universe and I still need more guidance
from your rich experience of sampling bcoz sampling is an art.

1)Today I have got Roland Fantasia bell wav samples notes of C1,C2,C3,C4,C5,C6 and G1,G2,G3,G4,G5. Should I load only C3 and G3 notes and then assign C3 & G3 to rest of the notes in multisampling menu. OR load whole notes C1 to C6 and G1 to G5?

Also I am going to hook up M1 synthesizer keyboard into my Pa input and then I would sample a very nice 6 seconds Universe pad sound. Kindly let me know how many notes and what key notes should I sample?

Also let us the Korgies know What refers to Sinewav,Triangle, Trapezoid in sound?

I am really admired with your peak skills of sampling and the sound knowledge of synth/arranger keyboards. You are real asset on Korgforums and most of us must utilize your skills. I am really thankful to you for resolving many queries for Korgies on behalf of this forum. We really owe to your contributions.

Thanks
Rocky

AntonySharmman · Post by **AntonySharmman** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:55 am

Thanks for your kind words , all here are trying to do their best to help each other in this great community !
I wish I had the appropriate free time to help more than I usually do , with more descriptive posts.

- About audio waveforms begin from there : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveform
- My guidance in sampling depends from sound itself you have to re-sample , so the best option is to listen to the sonic extension of
that sound in order to tell you the number of samples per octave !
- A bell wave , sounds to be very simple (contrary to original tubular bell that requires sampling per tone) , and can be sampled in 2-3 notes / octave
but begin from C2 up to C4 since older keyboards PCM waveforms were usually sampled in that area the most , and sampler reproduces
upper & lower pitch stretching.
- Also Sampling a M1 pad for 6 seconds duration ( also 3-4 samples per octave) , sounds as a proper workflow but it doesn't stop there
since the most sophisticated and complex job of sampling is the proper looping , and sampling without looping is definitely incomplete.
- "Looping" etude is very critical and needs a lot of study and experiment and certainly can't be discussed in posts !

As an epilogue , I'd rather say that skilled sound engineers that execute Pro sampling and looping (not actual re-sampling ), own very advanced gear ,
they work in PC/mac with DAW and external sound editors & spectrum analyzers , but mostly they have a very deep Musical & technical knowledge
of the instrument they try to simulate !

Wish you good luck and have a fun & educational sampling time !

rock_star · Post by **rock_star** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:51 pm

Thanks for your kind words. I will let you know about my sampling output.

rock_star · Post by **rock_star** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:12 am

Hi Mr. Antony,

I did the sampling of Fantasia Pad of 2 seconds but now I want to increase the duration from 2 seconds to 6seconds. Is it possible in Pa series? Any help would be highly appreciated.

Thanks
Rocky

AntonySharmman · Post by **AntonySharmman** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:32 am

It's told that you have to sample Fantasia Pad with a duration of 5-10 seconds per area and then to precisely loop every sample.
Having a sampled prototype of 2 seconds duration you can also try to loop it for infinitive sonic reproduction but the
success will be based of the complexity of that sound !

rock_star · Post by **rock_star** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:27 am

Mr. Antony I have again sampled the Fantasia Pad with the duration of 7 seconds but I still want to know how can I automatically start the Fantasia sound after expiring 7 seconds because it dies exactly after 7 sec but I want to keep it going till I left the key. Kindly guide me any procedure for that. Thanks for your rapid responses over my post.

AntonySharmman · Post by **AntonySharmman** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:51 am

The procedure you're looking for extending the sound duration is called looping , as I said this can't be simply explained
in a post so begin from "Advanced edit manual" PDF/Sampling operating mode/Sampling:Loop Edit , and experiment !

Dikikeys · Post by **Dikikeys** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:28 pm

One thing you can easily do to help your loops be smoother and need less data is to edit the Roland bell sound so that it has a VERY long decay, then recreate the decay with the Korg's envelope generators.

It is quite hard to get a smooth loop if the end of the loop is quieter than the beginning. You tend to get a 'bump' in the sound as it goes from the quiet end of the loop to the louder beginning.

You might also make sure that the Roland's VCF filter is wide open and resonance reduced completely, and then, once again, put these back on with the Korg's filters instead.

Hope this helps.