A new Motif at NAMM?

Bachus · Post by **Bachus** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:13 pm

it doesnt matter, i dont think Yamaha understands it has to step away from their still 20th century like hardware architecture....

laurance · Post by **laurance** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:36 pm

sticky ?

peter m. mahr · Post by **peter m. mahr** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:01 am

I except them to come with a Motif having some CP1 genes.

Vlad_77 · Post by **Vlad_77** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:24 pm

Actually, I'm not surprised that Yamaha didn't come out with something innovative. Yamaha still has a huge share of the pro market, and, Yamaha is the only one of the four majors that is a megacorporation. Mororcycles, jet skis, and whatever else Yamaha manufactures clearly turns a profit for the corporation. Korg, Roland, and Kurzweil have to rely on the music market alone.

Would it be nice to see Yamaha actually try something new? Yes! As cool as Motifs are in terms of being work horses, the Motif has really not changed a lot since the original unless you consider more ROM and portable flash significant.

Bachus · Post by **Bachus** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:35 pm

Vlad_77 wrote:Actually, I'm not surprised that Yamaha didn't come out with something innovative. Yamaha still has a huge share of the pro market, and, Yamaha is the only one of the four majors that is a megacorporation. Mororcycles, jet skis, and whatever else Yamaha manufactures clearly turns a profit for the corporation. Korg, Roland, and Kurzweil have to rely on the music market alone.

Would it be nice to see Yamaha actually try something new? Yes! As cool as Motifs are in terms of being work horses, the Motif has really not changed a lot since the original unless you consider more ROM and portable flash significant.

If your company stops being innovative, you eventually loose your customers..

There are many examples of this..

Vlad_77 · Post by **Vlad_77** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:58 am

Bachus wrote:
Vlad_77 wrote:Actually, I'm not surprised that Yamaha didn't come out with something innovative. Yamaha still has a huge share of the pro market, and, Yamaha is the only one of the four majors that is a megacorporation. Mororcycles, jet skis, and whatever else Yamaha manufactures clearly turns a profit for the corporation. Korg, Roland, and Kurzweil have to rely on the music market alone.

Would it be nice to see Yamaha actually try something new? Yes! As cool as Motifs are in terms of being work horses, the Motif has really not changed a lot since the original unless you consider more ROM and portable flash significant.
If your company stops being innovative, you eventually loose your customers..

There are many examples of this..

Yes, I agree, and I am not defending Yamaha. I am just pointing out that of all the things that Yamaha manufactures, the corporation wouldn't take as big of a hit as the other three majors. And as for Yamaha, they are certainly healthy with four iterations of the Motif. Yamaha's selling point has been continuity and if you look at advertisements for the XF, Yamaha reps and demonstrators clearly state this.

I have a Motif ES and I am happy with it. I really don't sense that an XF would add anything to my rig, so, yes, you are right. They don't have me as a customer; but Yamaha doesn't need me as a customer.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:03 pm

As I've said (bored people) on many occasions - Yamaha have a stunning synth and keyboard legacy - it's a great pity they do not acknowledge it or want to build upon it.

They are like NASA after the Apollo era - they let a generation of innovators retire without bothering to attempt to pass that know how and 'spirit' on.

The real issue for me is - Yamaha all round are an excellent company in almost every other regard. Whether it be pianos or digital mixers, they innovate, and build to an exquisite quality. And - they seem to have a real 'soul'. One anecdote from Yamaha Ireland (admittedly from over 10 years ago before Yamaha Ireland disappeared - one of the men in Yamaha Ireland, a gentle man called Robbie Preston who was very generous to me; was asked by an inner-Dublin charity if Yamaha would donate some musical instruments for a youth initiative - Yamaha's response - to send an articulated lorry to Dublin filled to the brim with acoustic and electronic instruments!) (and it must be said that Yamaha-Kemble UK had a big hand in that generosity too).

So to me, Yamaha's superlative capabilities in all other regards, coupled to their awesome legacy in synthesis and their sheer size and might would, under the right direction, surely lead to some astounding new synthesizer innovations?

But I think for the time being those people do not exist in Yamaha. But as long as the company is around, I have hope that eventually they will find interest in this field again - but I suspect that will need a new generation of managers, engineers and designers in that company. The personnel are just not there right now.

Bachus · Post by **Bachus** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:12 pm

Kevin Nolan wrote:As I've said (bored people) on many occasions - Yamaha have a stunning synth and keyboard legacy - it's a great pity they do not acknowledge it or want to build upon it.

They are like NASA after the Apollo era - they let a generation of innovators retire without bothering to attempt to pass that know how and 'spirit' on.

The real issue for me is - Yamaha all round are an excellent company in almost every other regard. Whether it be pianos or digital mixers, they innovate, and build to an exquisite quality. And - they seem to have a real 'soul'. One anecdote from Yamaha Ireland (admittedly from over 10 years ago before Yamaha Ireland disappeared - one of the men in Yamaha Ireland, a gentle man called Robbie Preston who was very generous to me; was asked by an inner-Dublin charity if Yamaha would donate some musical instruments for a youth initiative - Yamaha's response - to send an articulated lorry to Dublin filled to the brim with acoustic and electronic instruments!) (and it must be said that Yamaha-Kemble UK had a big hand in that generosity too).

So to me, Yamaha's superlative capabilities in all other regards, coupled to their awesome legacy in synthesis and their sheer size and might would, under the right direction, surely lead to some astounding new synthesizer innovations?

But I think for the time being those people do not exist in Yamaha. But as long as the company is around, I have hope that eventually they will find interest in this field again - but I suspect that will need a new generation of managers, engineers and designers in that company. The personnel are just not there right now.

Lets just hope it took them a bit longer as usuall and that they will surprise is one of these days... But all in all i dont think we will see much news untill their sales start seriously dropping..

CyCLoPS · Post by **CyCLoPS** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:20 pm

I strongly believe that the fellas at Yamaha need to think it really seriously before giving another "ROMpler-style" synth workstation to the market, since DSP-based synthesis is easier and cheaper than ever to achieve.
Just like Korg has come with dead-on faithfull recreations of their MS20 and MonoPoly legend synths as VA versions in the Kronos series, Yamaha could do something similar, incorporating some CS80-like magic in the next Motif, or whatever they'll call it. DSP is the way to go, both in computer and hardware synth worlds. Those who can't get it, and continue to stick with last year's technologies (to say the least) sooner or later they'll have problems in the industry.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:55 pm

Considering how many people still prefer the Motif sound and workflow to the more advanced alternatives, I doubt they will change anything, nor need to, anytime soon.

robinkle · Post by **robinkle** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:14 am

Of course Yamaha will bring a new Motif. I mean, why bring an old one? It might be dirty. Motif are always new when you buy them from a store.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:07 am

SanderXpander wrote:Considering how many people still prefer the Motif sound and workflow to the more advanced alternatives, I doubt they will change anything, nor need to, anytime soon.

I agree with you there. The Motif is built like a tank, and offers all the bases for the gigging musician. If it's good enough for Stevie Wonder, then it's good enough for everyone else.

I think Korg were very smart in getting Herbie Hancock on board with OASYS for a similar reason, though surely reliability issues with Kronos put a lot of people off; while the Fantom range has too often been regarded as an ambitious project with too many half-finished ideas for comfort.

Motif on the other hand offers a reliable sound and rock-solid construction.

But I feel we're kind of debating something else - innovation, forward thinking - a bit of risk taking - that sort of thing (and Korg have been excellent in all of those of late). Motif in that regard is arguably a step backwards for Yamaha. Even the SY77 (released in 1989/1990) advanced the S&S concept by introducing AFM and RCM synthesis, while the EX5 provided astounding FDSP, VL and AN technologies too. By comparison, Motif is S&S only - essentially nothing different (other than quality) to an M1. It's like a nice pair of old slippers, or a nice comfortable cardigan.

Yamaha were among the very best at innovation until around 1998 - 2000; and it is that spirit of creativity that I for one miss. I also miss, by the way, the likes of Stevie Wonder creating music on the likes of a Yamaha GX1 or ARP2600. However unreliable those instruments are, they helped define his sound; and the Motif does no such thing. It offers him reliability when playing live, but I've been to see him live and the sound is NOT iconic, and more 'tribute band' level. So Motif is fine for what it does; but for many, perhaps most (unknowingly) it does not inspire (even the artists themselves) - though I will admit, as the range has matured it is better sounding (especially it's filters).

Kevin.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:30 am

Great post: +1 to every word.

I also saw Stevie Wonder live with a Motif, and I also was not impressed at all with the overall sound coming from it: all just ok, but not more, and definitely not breathing and alive - no even remote comparison with orginal instruments or even with better VA synths.

william2 · Post by **william2** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:05 pm

A few ramblings

Innovative gear like the fs1r and ex-5/7 I think would have been a commercial failures, due in part to design errors.
All great synths btw

Commercial failures in Japan used to cause suicides, now just heads would roll..hahaha

They have become risk adverse in the electronic keys market, they know if they keep producing pretty good workstations they will sell enough to make
it a success.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:23 pm

William - I think there is more than a ring of truth to what you say. I bought an EX5 when it was released in 1998. The Web was about 5-6 years old by then and finding its feet; and there was an on-line backlash against the EX5 like you would not believe.

The central issue was that it was under-powered in the DSP department, so there are severe limitations on how many instances of FDSP and VL synths you can have in a performance (Yamaha's equivalent of a Combi).

If you exceeded the instrument's DSP limit you got message on the screen telling you so. For whatever reason, the user base could not accept this, and the reaction was nothing short of vicious, for months on end.

I've no evidence to back this up, but I feel that the online negative reaction to the EX5 caused that instrument's premature collapse; and I personally believe that Yamaha recoiled big time from synth development with any risk; and I suspect heads rolled as you say. Not 18 months later the Motif arrived with a much safer remit, focused more towards the gigging S&S keyboard-musician.

If you put the DSP limitations aside, the EX5 was, and indeed still is a remarkable instrument: 6 1/4 octave velocity and aftertouch (beautiful action - one of Yamaha's best ever), three wheels, ribbon controller, breath controller - and then under the hood - a very respectable S&S engine (still competes fabulously today) - and then 2 voice AN1x virtual analogue, one voice of VL1/VL70M technology and the stunning FDSP synthesis. I own both the keyboard and module version and still use them all the time (in fact have just finished a several month job of identifying the very best few hundred programs from the thousands available) - and all told it's stunning. The AN1x is still regarded as one of the best VAs ever made, while the VL1 needs no qualification.

So overall, an amazing instrument - a forerunner to the OASYS in fact with its multiple synth engines, sampler, SCSI, sequencer and so on - but perhaps the instrument that sunk Yamaha innovation in synthesis?

Kevin.