PETITION KORG POLL for KARMA 3 for KRONOS

[Synthetica]

I've always wondered why there is not just a separate hardware dedicated Karma module or controller with all the knobs, buttons, sliders and Midi (Stephen if your listening). After all it is just Midi data so a dedicated piece of hardware could be made to work with any other keyboard and could be built such that it could be upgraded from ver 2 to ver 3 etc, and would protect Karma-Labs property from piracy and anyone could enjoy Karma.

[StephenKay]

I've always wondered why there is not just a separate hardware dedicated Karma module or controller with all the knobs, buttons, sliders and Midi (Stephen if your listening). After all it is just Midi data so a dedicated piece of hardware could be made to work with any other keyboard and could be built such that it could be upgraded from ver 2 to ver 3 etc, and would protect Karma-Labs property from piracy and anyone could enjoy Karma.

Sure, it's a great idea, not that I haven't thought about it before. But I can't do it by myself. I need a company like Korg, or Yamaha, or...

[NuSkoolTone]

Steve's prior explanation does shed a bit of light on things and makes me more inclined to give my criticisms on Karma a break (citing the avail engineering resources). That said, my official answer would be "I guess so, since I need to buy the software anyway to make Karma USEFUL for me. Since I have a Motif XS as well, hopefully I could get a break on the license somewhere and get it for both. Might as well!

What kills me is Karma is so beyond an arp or arranger, yet it's frustratingly difficult for it to fill those roles! On my stock Motif, if I want to do a cocktail hour with the built in arranger/arp I CAN. Out of the box, no issue. With Karma? Not so much. I can do a "Karma" hour, but most people there will be like "What is that WEIRD stuff he's playing?". To me before something is useful in an "innovative" sense, it has to be useful in the "traditional" sense first.

I watched the Motif Karma 3.0 demo. No question there's amazing stuff there. But here's the rub: When do I get to sound like ME? You know, the guy playing the keyboard vs. some dude pushing buttons to change "scenes". Proof of this to me is all the sudden that Motif sounds a LOT like a Korg! It's really cool, but where do I get to write stuff? Where does Karma take MY ideas from SCRATCH and interpret from ME? I don't sound like a VIDEO GAME when I play! I also don't want to be tethered to a computer on a gig!

I think Kay's written some real cool things to jam over, but how much time (and apparently MONEY) do I have to invest to do something original? Or often in my case (personal song writing aspirations aside) , to do a faithful reproduction of a cover where they use a specific arpeggio? These questions is where I find the value in Karma troubling to spend money on at best and just plain aggravating and in my way at worst on the keyboard itself where the best I can do is "tweak" existing GE's into something that "doesn't suck". I know this is a strong opinion, and I don't mean any disrespect to Mr. Kay, but that's how I feel as a guy who's been playing keyboards for 25+ years, has a studio that's WAY beyond "prosumer", a day job as a computer programmer, degrees in both computer science and music, and gigs 100+ (easily) times a year doing clubs and private/professional work.

[StephenKay]

I watched the Motif Karma 3.0 demo. No question there's amazing stuff there. But here's the rub: When do I get to sound like ME?

When you inject yourself into the performance. How is it that you can sound "like you" with the Motif, but not with the Motif + KARMA? (although you haven't tried it yet). What's the difference? They both provide backing tracks...

You know, the guy playing the keyboard vs. some dude pushing buttons to change "scenes".

The Scenes change the configuration of the backing tracks. What's your problem with that? You can program each scene to be an individual expression of your uniqueness, if you so desire. I don't force you to use scenes that I (or someone here) programmed. Go to it.

Proof of this to me is all the sudden that Motif sounds a LOT like a Korg!

Sure it does, because I and Paul Osborn programmed KARMA Motif. Our programming is all over the original KARMA combis in the OASYS, M3, and Kronos.

It's really cool, but where do I get to write stuff? Where does Karma take MY ideas from SCRATCH and interpret from ME?

KARMA never interprets your ideas, not on a Korg, not on a Yamaha. That's your job. Make it sound like you.

I know this is a strong opinion, and I don't mean any disrespect to Mr. Kay, but that's how I feel as a guy who's been playing keyboards for 25+ years, has a studio that's WAY beyond "prosumer", a day job as a computer programmer, degrees in both computer science and music, and gigs 100+ (easily) times a year doing clubs and private/professional work.

You know what? I used to gig about 200+ times a year. I made my entire living as a gigging musician, from my 20's to my 40's. No day job, no night job, nothing else. Performing in nightclubs, weddings, cruise ships, you name it. At some point, I gave it up, decided to write computer software. I've been there. I decided the knowledge I had was more general and could be applied to music technology.

So I developed KARMA, and licensed it to Korg. That doesn't include licensing my standalone software for free, which is a separate thing. You've been vocal about how it burns you to have to pay for my software to edit GEs and make them your own (in this thread and others). But that's not really my problem. That is something you should direct to Korg.

[NuSkoolTone]

When you inject yourself into the performance. How is it that you can sound "like you" with the Motif, but not with the Motif + KARMA? (although you haven't tried it yet). What's the difference? They both provide backing tracks...

Perhaps it's a grandiose assumption on my part, but one would think the experience of playing Karma on the Kronos is a similar experience to Motif+ Karma sans a few newer features. The difference is this: As cheesy as it can be, sometimes "Standards" are needed. Especially for a cocktail hour. If I want a waltz, jazz, blues or whatever it's already in there (Or pretty close) in the Motif's arranger/arp AFAIK. In Karma, IME it's not. Sure I can just play the bass line I suppose and forgo extra comp parts, but it's nice to let the "Built in bass player" et al do the work and not have to work so hard when we have a pumpin reception expected of us in an hour. Further the non-standard stuff in the Motif is more non specific, and can be broadly applied more easily IMO. I also don't feel as much that I just slapped someone else's riff on what I'm doing because it's generic enough that's practically "public domain" so to speak. One may argue "Karma's not an arranger/arp! It's so much MORE than that!", but sometimes that's all you want! When it's capable of so much and it's so difficult to get it to do what a $300 home keyboard does (when you need it) it just kinda makes you scratch your head.

The Scenes change the configuration of the backing tracks. What's your problem with that? You can program each scene to be an individual expression of your uniqueness, if you so desire. I don't force you to use scenes that I (or someone here) programmed. Go to it.

Really? On a stock Kronos? Please enlighten me. Perhaps I mean "GE" vs. "Scene" in Karmaspeak. If there's a way I can say "Bass plays EXACTLY this, Guitar/accomp plays EXACTLY that" I'd love to hear it. I can use Drum track instead of Karma and it's fine.

Sure it does, because I and Paul Osborn programmed KARMA Motif. Our programming is all over the original KARMA combis in the OASYS, M3, and Kronos.

And there's some fine writing there! Though who did you "Program" it for? Am I playing Kay/Osborn's greatest hits? Feels like it.

It's really cool, but where do I get to write stuff? Where does Karma take MY ideas from SCRATCH and interpret from ME?

KARMA never interprets your ideas, not on a Korg, not on a Yamaha. That's your job. Make it sound like you.

Wait, I thought Karma was an "Algorithmic Music Generation System"? So what is it doing then? So I'm taking what someone else did (none of which really seem to fit in any traditional genre), pushing some buttons, moving some faders, and playing a few chords and now it sounds like "Me"? So it's not look what I wrote, but look what I "Edited".

You know what? I used to gig about 200+ times a year. I made my entire living as a gigging musician, from my 20's to my 40's. No day job, no night job, nothing else. Performing in nightclubs, weddings, cruise ships, you name it. At some point, I gave it up, decided to write computer software. I've been there. I decided the knowledge I had was more general and could be applied to music technology.

That's a busy schedule indeed. Keep in mind our "100+ gigs" is strictly a weekend thing and we are turning work down due to availability. With family and assets (Mortgage, cars etc...) we feel having professional day jobs is just more secure and view this as a 3rd income. Yes my wife is involved as well and it's a "Family business" so to speak. Kudos to you for being able to change direction like that and build a successful company. Lots of hard work and sacrifice and you deserve your success.

You've been vocal about how it burns you to have to pay for my software to edit GEs and make them your own (in this thread and others). But that's not really my problem. That is something you should direct to Korg.

Right. Apparently it's OURS. So in what way can Korg solve this? Do they have access/permission to give us a way to edit/create GE's? Do they have the source code or at least the spec to make their own software to interface with it? Or would they basically have to pony up Karma editor licenses for everyone? If it's the latter we know how that's gonna go! If they have to write software, fat chance of that too.

So basically when the "Contracts" got drawn up and Karma was still niche enough (On a dedicated Karma keyboard or an $8000 OA$Y$) that it didn't matter, the users that wanted to go beyond the presets where left with no choice but to spend more money. $199 right? Forgive me if that's a bit terse, but that's basically the deal no? Why wasn't the (seemingly obvious) "feature" to record your own basic phrases made available to users on the board? Simply to sell software? Even to the ability to import 1 track GM files would have made such a difference!

And to know if it's even worth it to the individual user, are there examples of user made GE's that sound nothing like the original GEs? All I can find are people just jamming over the presets. Even examples of arranger type stuff would be good. It's not like there's a try before you buy scenario...right?

[StephenKay]

I'm not going to get into a protracted discussion about it (since you seem to have a bit of an attitude about it).
Life's too short and I have other things to work on. However...

Why wasn't the (seemingly obvious) "feature" to record your own basic phrases made available to users on the board? Simply to sell software? Even to the ability to import 1 track GM files would have made such a difference!

I've stated here, publicly in several other threads (this one too, earlier on I believe) that the feature to import 1 track GM files and turn them into GEs exists in my software, and has for some time. It's part of KARMA. I've offered this feature to Korg years ago to include in the Korg implementations. So far, they have not been interested in implementing it. I don't really know why. Yes, there would be some engineering work required on their part. But the feature does exist, and it's not like *I'm* preventing users from having some way to create basic GEs (just to sell software). And to correct one point, the KARMA Kronos software is $169, not $199. FWIW.

[NuSkoolTone]

I'm not going to get into a protracted discussion about it (since you seem to have a bit of an attitude about it).
Life's too short and I have other things to work on. However...

Why wasn't the (seemingly obvious) "feature" to record your own basic phrases made available to users on the board? Simply to sell software? Even to the ability to import 1 track GM files would have made such a difference!

I've stated here, publicly in several other threads (this one too, earlier on I believe) that the feature to import 1 track GM files and turn them into GEs exists in my software, and has for some time. It's part of KARMA. I've offered this feature to Korg years ago to include in the Korg implementations. So far, they have not been interested in implementing it. I don't really know why. Yes, there would be some engineering work required on their part. But the feature does exist, and it's not like *I'm* preventing users from having some way to create basic GEs (just to sell software). And to correct one point, the KARMA Kronos software is $169, not $199. FWIW.

With all due respect, unless your being praised the "attitude" appears mutual in your posts here and in other threads. I don't want to "bicker" over what in the end will make no difference, but I like to be thorough in responses and like yourself I'm passionate about what I do. Moving on...

When you say the import is "part of Karma", I'm not sure if you're referring to what you've already given Korg or what you've offered to sell them as a feature they have not yet purchased. We all know it's not in the current implementation. Now if they already have rights to it, with no additional licensing etc and simply haven't added it in then that IS truly mind boggling and frustrating. If it still requires investment from Korg outside of minor development, then why it's not implemented is obvious.

In regards to Karma and the politics of it, I'm just catching up. In previous versions of the past, I know it didn't meet my needs and there were other choices I felt more suitable so I left it at that. With the Kronos, I wanted the other features enough to accept that Karma was going to prove frustrating in some form eventually. In this frustration, I apologize if I'm putting the "blame" unfairly on you as I do not know the full story in that regard and AFAIK there's not a "Politcal History of Karma" thread that outlines who decided what ended up in the implementation and what was left out or deemed "Too costly" license or development wise.

It may surprise you that despite my gripes, I AM interested in Karma. Especially since I will still own two workstations which are supported once I've migrated the Kronos to gigging and sell the M50. I plan to keep the Kronos for a fairly long time, or at the least until there's a Kronos II provided it's worth the upgrade. So in the long run, the editor should be a worthwhile investment. At this point it's a matter of being able to conclude whether the Karma Editor will allow me to do what's needed, and how much work is involved to get there. I know I can have "Fun" with it, but that is secondary and when time allows. I'm also in between other studio/live production updates (Tube Vocal mic for studio, Effect lighting upgrades for stage, digital mixing board with recall, moving to IEMs etc...) so I'm scheduling for when these purchases make sense as well and have to budget them out...

[StephenKay]

When you say the import is "part of KARMA", I'm not sure if you're referring to what you've already given Korg or what you've offered to sell them as a feature they have not yet purchased. We all know it's not in the current implementation. Now if they already have rights to it, with no additional licensing etc and simply haven't added it in then that IS truly mind boggling and frustrating. If it still requires investment from Korg outside of minor development, then why it's not implemented is obvious.

To be clear, the feature was offered to Korg without any additional licensing expenses. That is still how it stands at this moment. However, they would have to assign engineering resources to make it happen, and pay other incidental expenses related to the implementation of the feature.

[jazlover]

It seems to me that if you need an arranger... (1.) you get an arranger and don't blame Karma for not being something you can't use... or (2.) buy the software and learn how to use Karma. ..or (3.) try to talk Mr Kay into giving you an arranger for Christmas.

Karma is what it is. Karma is deep but worth the relationship.

[NuSkoolTone]

It seems to me that if you need an arranger... (1.) you get an arranger and don't blame Karma for not being something you can't use... or (2.) buy the software and learn how to use Karma. ..or (3.) try to talk Mr Kay into giving you an arranger for Christmas.

Karma is what it is. Karma is deep but worth the relationship.

Hey jazbag, before you spew random nonsense, how about you read what was actually SAID in my posts.

Get a clue!

[bladuck]

Disclaimer: These days I'm mostly hobbyist keyboard player using keys to support my main instrument, guitar. So please, professionals and gigging musicians take my addition to this thread with a grain of salt.

I think the problem with "Karma 3 built into Kronos" is somewhere else. One has to look at the Korg product line in the past 10 years to understand what is going on with workstations, karma integration and other goodies products from korg.

Korg Strategy, My view:

I admire Korg as the most innovative company in the keyboard, synth workstation space. Rolland repackages stuff from box to box, Yamaha is too conservative but built very good with good sounds. Korg also repackages features especially in the current recession cycle. Look at Korg King or Krome… The Krome combines features too; the good sound engines from old workstation to a crippled workstation. The korg-king is putting the best of the good synth engines into a no-workstation keyboard. On the flip side the Electribes and kaossillator were really ground-breaking products.

I believe that KORG noticed a new kid on the block a few years back. The new kid was a device called IPAD and it's excellent touch battery and other device properties. Korg figured out fairly fast as to how easy some music software works on IPAD and the latency is very low too. (let's not start apple vs android bash crap here please) if you own an iPad give a try to app/toy called the Figure from propellerhead. Not too many tweaks. Almost a toy but the workflow is amazing. If I need 15-30 seconds of music, I can get one in under an hour using figure and 1-2 other apps on iPad. I could go on and on b/c I own most of the good music apps out there (500+ and counting). I do collect them to test the workflow to see if there is a groundbreaking way to be more productive or spend less time going trough f'ing PDFs manuals for old workstations. Yes the Karma manual is like taking a semester in a university, but once you get the grip of it the karma has unlimited possibilities. A note for Steve; a lot more people would go for Karma soft if the learning curve was not too steep. You could hide all the seeds, random curve, exponential crap for an average musician that does not necessarily need to be math-savvy. A lot of successful apps these days HIDE the technicalities.

So the CORE korg product strategy is in a "save-ass mode" these days. They came up with a small kiddy synths for less than $300, and 3+ apps (kaossillator/MS20/electribe/polysix) in the app store that sell pretty well. That to me look as direction. I'm not taking into consideration the acquisitions products companies that they made in past few years.
Based on above rant thee won't be Karma 3 in a board and most likely there won't be an another workstation as we know it. The arrangers again is different story.

My ideal workstation dream:

Korg should look at following options for future Kronos and similar ones:

a) get rid of the thingy they call sequencer and replace it with
16 flexible step sequencers that you can control easy by sliding fingers on steps (CC, Velocity, Timing etc.) The same way as you control some iPad step sequencers (take look at DrumTrackHD iPad app for starters)

While on it add some Intelligent randomness to it (see the autobeat plugin for Ableton) also don't forget to take the concept of scenes from karma and ableton.

b) get rid of the archaic bank/preset concept and replace it with
built it librarian with:
- tagging, and comments for sounds
- filters/sort by utilization, by date updated
- add rating for sound and two click preset sharing via some "cloud" crap

c) built-in wifi with capability to upload / export to some good cloud services or computer so I can share it with other musicians etc.
The wifi would also allow to add 2-3 iPads Midi over WIFI to control some in-depth parameters and or save load samples from iPad.

d) implement some AI (artificial intelligence) for the step sequencing and patch/sound selections suggestions. Meaning the AI would be responsible to police or adjust notes, velocities and timing to better outcome effect.

e) leave the sound engines from Kronos/Oasys that is what they do the best. I suggested a few years back to split the touch screen into four x-y pads to control karma and other real time effect things. I love the x-y drum machine in garageband and some presets on kaosilattor for controlling expression

f) borrow some real mastering/vocal processing plug-in technology from Korg excellent arrangers.

g) put a base price to it around $2000 and make whatever your KORG marketing gurus tell you as plugins or expansions so If I want all above I would end up paying around $4500. That is the price for Computer + Ableton Suite + Master Keyboard + Push … Did I tell you that I HATE cables ?


It is ALL about workflow (at least for me):

It is NOT about synth engines anymore. With SSDs and 2+ core CPU you can get ANY synth engine with unlimited RAMpling and VSTs with pretty low latency. It is all about a workflow. To prove my point look at Ableton+Push. I own one and the waiting list was 4 months (?) Was there waiting list for Kronos ? Please people, forget that there is no keyboard built into Push, but some 64 AFTERTOUCH pads and the genius scene non-linear-editing concept of ableton is light years ahead of the classic DAW approach piano roll crap such as Cubase that I started to use when it was on version 2.x.

So the issue is to figure out the UX, user interface or user friendliness in a music workstation. So somehow one needs to "marry the Ableton Push with Kronos" . This way you'd end up with and ultimate music workflow device. Seriously there is so much to simplify the oscillator pages, the karma pages etc. 500 karma names to choose from … really ?
too much to show a program utilization in other combis while saving it … really ?
too much to use the same concept from the kaosspad on the touch screen … really ?

Damm I miss the 8 pads from the M3 on the Kronos

For the record I would NOT buy any Korg workstation if there was no KARMA. Karma (not the board) and ableton push should get a nobel prize for best product to improve a musician workflow. I LOVE karma even on version 2.2.
I also own a Karma software for a few boards. I hate hooking up a computer to a workstation.

I own many Korg workstations, most of the electribes and that shitty kaossilator pro that needs 20 seconds to save four waves agggrrr!. I purchased my first korg workstation almost 15 years back.
I also own a lot of Yamaha and roland gear.

enuf!

PS I don't work for ableton nor any of afore mentioned music apps

[SanderXpander]

1. There certainly was a waiting list for Kronos. I waited for mine for like 8 months.
2. You can make quite significant changes to programs within combis using completely editable Tone Adjust, if you want to. I personally actually prefer having independent programs for easy reuse between combis. Having both options like this is great. Tagging would be nice.
3. Kaoss pad functionality would be great, they did it on the m3. Not sure why not on the Kronos.

As much as I love Ableton, clip based sequencing for me only works as an addition to linear sequencing. Most of the time I'm still using Sonar for anything serious. I don't have Push but I do have an iPad with Lemur Shove, LiveControl 2, an APC40 and Maschine. Even so. I would never use a hardware workstation sequencer, but perhaps my needs are different from those of others. I need
1. Large dual monitor setup
2. Ability to load VSTs of choice, both instruments and FX
3. Mouse and keyboard for serious editing
No workstation can provide all of those.

Different companies do different things well. I might as well complain to Cakewalk that they don't make good keyboards. Personally I'm happy to be able to combine so many great products and utilize the best parts of each, ignoring the rest. There will never be a true one stop solution.

[Bertotti]

I would be thrilled with Karma 3 in my Mac. I have no problem using it with my Kronos. Is there any chance of Karma 3 for Kronos software this is an older thread so I am curious if anything has been started. I was eyeballing a micr arranger but this would be so much better for me!

[gjvti]

I've always wondered why there is not just a separate hardware dedicated Karma module or controller with all the knobs, buttons, sliders and Midi (Stephen if your listening). After all it is just Midi data so a dedicated piece of hardware could be made to work with any other keyboard and could be built such that it could be upgraded from ver 2 to ver 3 etc, and would protect Karma-Labs property from piracy and anyone could enjoy Karma.

Sure, it's a great idea, not that I haven't thought about it before. But I can't do it by myself. I need a company like Korg, or Yamaha, or...

Just few my thoughts.... Maybe you need to consider to team up with somebody for that? Maybe Karma HW could be based on something like Raspberry Pi or even integrated on next gen iConnectivity iConnectMIDI box what would be really cool. Universal iPad version would be excellent and much more affordable, but I know you wrote that you don't code in objective C so maybe you can team up with Rudess developer, who as I understand, codes in C and has written something like a objective C wrapper to run his code on iOS. Of course, Karma GUI needs to be totally redesigned for touch interface. Anyway your Karma concept is really inspiring, thank you very much for bringing it to us!

[Sharp]

Universal iPad version would be excellent and much more affordable

Why would it be much more affordable ?

The way I see it, iPad users simply expect to pay very little for software for no reason other than Apps go for so little in the App Store already.

If KARMA retails at between $170 to $200 USD depend on what edition your looking at, then an iPad edition will not magically be much more affordable in my opinion.

Regards
Sharp.