Poor Manual.

clausw · Post by **clausw** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:03 am

Illogical poor manual. If this forum had not existed then, I had thrown my PA3 out.

Veren · Post by **Veren** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:57 am

Hi Clausw

i understand what you saying and i guess most people on the forum too will.

However have you been through any Yamaha manuals? From a personal point of view, i would rather have Korgs half explained manuals (meaning there would be more but functionality but not properly documented) over Yamahas half explained and misleading manuals (features in in basic form listed as FULL and not explained therefore hiding the limitations..only know you are so limited once you buy).

But yes Korg could have done a thorough job detailing the processes etc.

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:17 am

However have you been through any Yamaha manuals? From a personal point of view, i would rather have Korgs half explained manuals (meaning there would be more but functionality but not properly documented) over Yamahas half explained and misleading manuals (features in in basic form listed as FULL and not explained therefore hiding the limitations..only know you are so limited once you buy).

+1

I would hate to have to create documentation for the Korg PA3X - it would be daunting and very frustrating - where do you start? Who do you cater for? What level - beginner/intermediate/advanced???? etc...etc...

The current documents do provide a good "Quick Start" guide and the rest is purely reference, but good reference IMHO - there's nothing in between but even if someone asked me "what do you want then?" I would mostly answer with specific task questions like "how do you import SMF to build a STYLE?" - really asking for a specific task tutorial.
I think that the most successful approach would be exactly what we have now (User/Advandced manuals) plus lots of video (or document) tutorials - Korg M3 "In the Studio With Korg" videos are great plus all the M3 videos from Karma-labs.

It's usually all about "What do you want to do?"
So if you were to answer "...create a new STYLE" or "..create a new drum kit from samples" then a tutorial on that would be excellent.
Short of having formal courses (never going to happen) tutorials are the best option IMHO.
Rob Sherratt had the right idea with his DVD tutorials (still useful today for PA3X in many ways).
I thought about doing this myself a while ago but it would be hugely time-consuming and require some decent video gear and software.

Oh well - things aren't too bad....

Pete

clausw · Post by **clausw** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:47 am

I would say that all documentation tutorial, youtube videos that can show in detail how Korg have built their software is well received.
I have not the slightest knowledge of how Yamaha made their manual, also seems a bit uninteresting here.
It is well known that companies that are not ISO approved or follow their own idea of building manual also hides a lot of knowledge that is only available to very few people.
I can recommend Korg in the future, to follow an ISO standard in the preparation of documentation.
http://www.ansi.org/news_publications/n ... cleid=1956

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:32 pm

(I hope I have understood your comments - apologies if not)

It is well known that companies that are not ISO approved or follow their own idea of building manual also hides a lot of knowledge that is only available to very few people.

No manufacturer is obliged to divulge all technical information - some of that is proprietary and sometimes dangerous for clients to know - e.g. Korg PA diagnostics mode access.
The tutorials are designed to "teach" - step by step.
To write manuals for this type of keyboard to "teach" everything the keyboard does for all levels of owner (beginner/advanced etc) would take up several times the current amount of documentation.
It would be impracticable.
Video tutorials are the most practical and effective way of teaching components of this technology - "how to use" step by step.
Don't know of any keyboard manufacturer who has produced such documentation.
When the first Korg KARMA was released, the docs were very limited - then more and more docs were produced
Stephen Kay then produced a fantastic Q&A document - he took the most likely questions and supplied detailed tutorial-style explanations for each.
ISO is not always practical and sometimes inappropriate - I have written a huge amount of documentation and technical procedures - often standards conformity can make the end product unmanageable - ISO standards are just a guide - but a good thing, I agree.

Exactly what documentation would you expect Korg to produce?

BillyHank · Post by **BillyHank** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:39 pm

Actually, I think the Korg manual is excellent and better than the Yamaha manuals by a mile.

I am one of those folks who actually reads the manuals - cover to cover.
What I see as a problem with the manuals has to do with the way the info is sorted.

Every single item on every single menu or touch place is described in detail and that is lacking in the Yamaha manuals, but the best part is that those detail descriptions are followed by a do it this way steps example. Just don't get in a big hurry with this and you will find it is all in there - everything.

The only missing stuff is any explanation of the sysex descriptions and Yamaha does give you all of those in a very easy understandable way.

And BTW - The parts covering Sampling and Sample edit are superb and it can "all" be done on the keyboard - who would have thought it?

Up until 4 months ago, I was Yamaha "only" arranger keyboard player for 12 years.

Bill G

wango · Post by **wango** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:52 pm

Rob Sherratt had the right idea with his DVD tutorials (still useful today for PA3X in many ways)

Hi Pete,

Since Rob's DVDs were made with the pa1X, do you think there's a risk
they might be confusing explaining the pa3X to a newcomer? I don't have an idea how much the lay-out between the 2 models changed through the years.

Compared to the video tutorials on Korg's website, is it worth having them?

Thanks for your (and of course other people's) opinion.

Ab

clausw · Post by **clausw** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:02 pm

Exactly what documentation would you expect Korg to produce?

I would like to KORG In their manual show examples of everything they describe. The manual is messy and is not logical. It is of course also with the way it's all programmed.
What microprocessor uses Korg for PA3x model?

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:24 pm

I would like to KORG In their manual show examples of everything they describe.

That was my point - specific tutorials!!!

The manual is messy and is not logical

I don't think you have the same manuals I have??
It what way is your manual NOT logical?

It is of course also with the way it's all programmed.

I don't think you have the same keyboard I have??
On what basis and knowledge are you criticising the programming?

What microprocessor uses Korg for PA3x model?

Why would you wish to know that? Is it relevant to anything?

This is confusing - sorry.....

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:31 pm

Compared to the video tutorials on Korg's website, is it worth having them?

Hi Ab

I will need to replay mine and see - will get back to you - from memory I think they would still be OK but some allowances would have to be made.

Cheers

Pete

clausw · Post by **clausw** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:53 pm

That was my point - specific tutorials!!!

My answer to that is above:
I would say that all documentation tutorial, youtube videos that can show in detail how Korg have built their software is well received.
Means that tutorial and any youtube explanation is very welcome

I don't think you have the same manuals I have??

Maybe you are right. My manual is downloaded from Korgs home page both of them.

I agree the keyboard is new to me and I do have to learn how all is connected but even for a new owner it should not be that complicated.

It seems like you say:

You are exaggerating. This is a small issue for us if it is an issue at all.

I must say:

To the good people who suffer because of this problem, it certainly doesn't look small.

Sam CA · Post by **Sam CA** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:50 pm

Yeah, the manual is not that great, but this forum definitely makes up for it. Maybe you should just drop the manual for now and start reading posts for a while...Then, go back to the manual, and it might make more sense.

Thoraldus · Post by **Thoraldus** » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:01 am

clausw wrote:
That was my point - specific tutorials!!!
My answer to that is above:
I would say that all documentation tutorial, youtube videos that can show in detail how Korg have built their software is well received.
Means that tutorial and any youtube explanation is very welcome

I don't think you have the same manuals I have??
Maybe you are right. My manual is downloaded from Korgs home page both of them.

I agree the keyboard is new to me and I do have to learn how all is connected but even for a new owner it should not be that complicated.

It seems like you say:

You are exaggerating. This is a small issue for us if it is an issue at all.

I must say:

To the good people who suffer because of this problem, it certainly doesn't look small.

The KORG Arrangers are not simple machines. They have a GREAT amount of flexibility that you will grow to appreciate as you explore the machine. You can get a sense of the complexity by just looking at the size of the manuals. I think the combined size of the PA3X manuals is over 43MB ... compare that to the Tyros with ~7MB

You're not going to learn this information overnight. I've had my KORG PAs for 3 years now and am still learning how to do new things. That's why these fora are invaluable. If after plowing into the manuals you need help with something, just come here and post a question. You'll be surprised at the willingness of the members here to help out. I read my PA600 manual from cover to cover twice before I even rec'd the keyboard. I've also learned a bit more about my PA600 by reading the PA3X manual.

Yes. it would be great if there was a video tutorial on every feature of these keyboards, but I think it would take a man year or two to compile those videos. Not going to happen.

clausw · Post by **clausw** » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:45 am

That's why these fora are invaluable. If after plowing into the manuals you need help with something, just come here and post a question. You'll be surprised at the willingness of the members here to help out.

Yes sure.

I am very happy for the help I already got from people here. It´s great and lead me back to my very first input in this thread.

Illogical poor manual. If this forum had not existed then, I had thrown my PA3 out.

Thoraldus · Post by **Thoraldus** » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:53 am

clausw wrote:
That's why these fora are invaluable. If after plowing into the manuals you need help with something, just come here and post a question. You'll be surprised at the willingness of the members here to help out.
Yes sure.

I am very happy for the help I already got from people here. It´s great and lead me back to my very first input in this thread.

Illogical poor manual. If this forum had not existed then, I had thrown my PA3 out.

The PA3X probably has more degrees of freedom than a Boeing 747. It will take a while to embrace its features.

By the way, I think the PA3X, PA900 and PA600 manuals are quite good, lacking only in the sparsity of Midi Sysex information.