New Battery Damaged after Installing OS1.5 and Factory Reset

[vagro]

I was in no hurry so I waited for some of you try the new OS1.5.
Today I decided to install the new OS very carefully following step by step the instructions of installation procedures. The OS1.5 was installed properly I think, later I made a Full Resource Backup and a Factory Restore. When the factory restore ended a message appeared on the screen saying to switch off the instrument, I checked the original manual and the Pdf instructions and they didn't mention that message. I didn't know if I had to press the Standby button or the rear button but I decided to turn off the instrument using the rear Power button. After that I turned on the Pa3x and noticed it was loading all the resources as if the battery was not connected. Later I checked the battery tab on global settings and a message said that the battery was damaged. Of course now the green light indicates the battery is not working and the keyboard takes a few minutes on start up.

Very dissapointing considering it took a long time to get that battery at home. Too many problems with that battery I doubt I will get another one my Pa3x may be in danger, it seems Korg has not developed very well that feature.

[alfredokiwi]

Hi Vagro, how are you? No worry about the battery message. The first question is if the battery was working properly before the OS upgrade. If so this means that the new OS 1.5 don´t sense properly the charge voltage. Also it can be that the new battery seems to be faulty, Because the battery in use is a 7,2 volts rechargeable this can be replaced by a well branding one.

For me is better to buy a well branding one as installing a Non Brand chinese type. I found the model type: 7.2 Volts 2100 MAH

http://forsale.oodle.co.uk/detail/korg- ... ey-lnd-en/

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... highlight=

Also on cameras well know brands batteries with such voltage and current rating are in use and maybe would be an alternative for the Pa3X.

If a well branding does not work properly this means that issues on the voltage sensing by the microprocessor or a wrong design on the charging circuit leads to problems forcing the loading of RAM data on every turn on.

That´s my point of view, yes it is a bit disgusting but not a potential problem...

[hakanx]

hi guys, i'm using the old battery for 7 months. i think there is no problem with the motherboard or another board in my pa3x. so i don't want to change the old battery with a new one. may be a problem with warranty if i don't change it in the future?

[vagro]

Hi Vagro, how are you? No worry about the battery message. The first question is if the battery was working properly before the OS upgrade. If so this means that the new OS 1.5 don´t sense properly the charge voltage. Also it can be that the new battery seems to be faulty, Because the battery in use is a 7,2 volts rechargeable this can be replaced by a well branding one.

For me is better to buy a well branding one as installing a Non Brand chinese type. I found the model type: 7.2 Volts 2100 MAH

http://forsale.oodle.co.uk/detail/korg- ... ey-lnd-en/

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... highlight=

Also on cameras well know brands batteries with such voltage and current rating are in use and maybe would be an alternative for the Pa3X.

If a well branding does not work properly this means that issues on the voltage sensing by the microprocessor or a wrong design on the charging circuit leads to problems forcing the loading of RAM data on every turn on.

That´s my point of view, yes it is a bit disgusting but not a potential problem...

Hi Alfredo. Actually I,m not worried but disappointed because I have a brand new keyboard with a slower start up and that tiny light twinkling betwen red and green.
As a matter of fact the missing battery is not a big problem for me because I always turn on all my keyboards when I play (one or two times a day at most) and the Mediastation takes aprox. 2 minutes to turn on so I only have to wait an extra minute for the Pa3x to startup. Actually my arrangers are placed fixed on a stand in my studio and I would not need to move or unplug them. There's something I wondered when the battery was installed, what if I keep the Pa3x on stanby mode all the time? Might the battery get overcharged or diminish its lifetime? Might it overheat or explode? It's not recommended to keep any device (notebooks, phones) charging continuously. When I use my notebook with AC cable I take the battery out. Now that the battery is not connected do you think it is risky to keep the instrument on stanby mode all the time? Knowing the country we live in, would you recommend any good power stabilizer (estabilizador de tensión) to protect my keyboards and computers from powercuts and ocassional thunderbolts? I had a real bad experience with those stabilizers in the past (about 10 years ago) when instead of protecting my computer it kept damaging the power supply module.
The battery was working fine before I installed the new OS and I did a Factory Restore. The battery was damaged I don't think the new OS is not sensing it, the message I read said it was damaged, now it says it's not installed (it is uninstalled now).
Alfredo I don't think I need a new battery yet, I think Korg may be still experimenting with this battery stuff, and I would not risk to install any other brand and lose my warranty. I still wonder what are the "extreme conditions" under which the original battery might explode or damage the keyboard, I don't suppose I would expose my instrument to those conditions playing two or three hours a day in a well air conditioned room.

Greetings

[vagro]

hi guys, i'm using the old battery for 7 months. i think there is no problem with the motherboard or another board in my pa3x. so i don't want to change the old battery with a new one. may be a problem with warranty if i don't change it in the future?

Hi Hakanx. I still have my older battery and I was tempted to install it again. I'm not a technician but I think there's a very low chance you get into trouble, however probably neither me or anybody else here would recommend you keep it connected. I don't know what Alfredokiwi thinks about it, he is a computer engineer.

[fResH_]

The Battery have been a pain in the ass I see for some people..

Good work KORG. Bravo

[hewi]

I was in no hurry so I waited for some of you try the new OS1.5.
Today I decided to install the new OS very carefully following step by step the instructions of installation procedures. The OS1.5 was installed properly I think, later I made a Full Resource Backup and a Factory Restore. When the factory restore ended a message appeared on the screen saying to switch off the instrument, I checked the original manual and the Pdf instructions and they didn't mention that message. I didn't know if I had to press the Standby button or the rear button but I decided to turn off the instrument using the rear Power button. After that I turned on the Pa3x and noticed it was loading all the resources as if the battery was not connected. Later I checked the battery tab on global settings and a message said that the battery was damaged. Of course now the green light indicates the battery is not working and the keyboard takes a few minutes on start up.


Very dissapointing considering it took a long time to get that battery at home. Too many problems with that battery I doubt I will get another one my Pa3x may be in danger, it seems Korg has not developed very well that feature.

(Sorry my poor english)
Try to wippe button battery menu

[vagro]

Try to wippe button battery menu

That is the first thing I did, nothing happened.

[alfredokiwi]

Hi Vagro, I understand your concern. My point of view about this issue is that the idea of using a rechargeable battery for DRAM chips samples data retention is not the right choice due the complexity involved to control the battery charge when keyboard is powered up. Because the Korg Pa3X use an internal switching power supply the most appropriate would be the use of an secondary permanent "stand by power". Today on every computer ATX power supply a permanent 5 volt stand by output is available that powers the CMOS real time clock and other peripherals for example LAN & WLAN devices for wake up (power on), also on some USB ports when a computer is power off the voltage is also available on USB for peripherals and I think also for the RAM banks in "suspend mode" for data retention.
On the early motherboards for real time clock stand by data retention a 3,6V rechargeable battery was used in the same way as the Pa3X but on many situations after months of use it started to fails in many cases due the leakage of acid leading to motherboard corrosion and components failures, so the new motherboards today use a non rechargeable CR2032 lithium battery to power the real time clock and scratch RAM BIOS settings because is more efficient as the acid rechargeable battery.

On the case of DRAM memory devices a refresh cycle should be performed by the memory controller at specific times to avoid the lost of data, this "DRAM memory refresh logic" resides on the EDS engine chip and when the keyboard is power off the RAM refresh cycles should continue on the DRAMs chips to avoid the lost of samples data (due the operation of DRAM memory chips). New DRAM memories have today a special mode or "suspend mode" that enables an internal counter that cares the refresh cycles (that's what I found researching internet). I don´t know which method use the Pa3X, anyway the first using the EDS engine for DRAM refreshing would consume much more current power on suspend mode, the second on which the DRAM memory itself cares about the refresh cycles the current consumption would be much less because the EDS engine can be switched off.
Another way for data retention is the use of flash devices (an MP3 player for example), but these devices have the disadvantage of the limited memory erase/write cycles or short life time.

So that´s my point of view about the complications of using a rechargeable battery for DRAM data retention. When "stand by" current consumption is high an auxiliary permanent "stand by power" on the switching power supply is the right choice instead of a battery, in the same way as computers "5 V stand by" on ATX power supplies.

[Shahin]

Exactly Alfred ! Finally someone said something about this battery method ! I am totally against using battery for retaining samples. battery is a consumable product and as you see, has caused several complications . They actually have complicated the problem instead of facilitating it. For Gods sake ! LOOk at tyros 4 ! It has no battery for saving the sample in ram and yes it has the capacity of 1 GB instead of maximum 512 (WITH ALL THE COMPRESSION PROBLEMS) . Hear that korg?! 1 Gb of sample ! and it is a home keyboard but korg brags about the pa3x as THE PROFESSIONAL ARRANGER ! Tyros 4 users can turn on their keyboards and in a few seconds........ voila ! !gb of sample is there without having to struggle with compression or any battery. Learn korg , learn ! Use that kind of technology, its 2012.

[AntonySharmman]

alfredokiwi
Though this subject has been covered in
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... c&start=15

In Pa3X , commercial Samsung monolithic ECL RAM chips are used with no Dram refreshing
cycles but just suspension logic input and direct power supply for data retention that's why
2000 mAh last the most 3 days.
Engineers like us (as you seems to be) can make many proposals , but the fact is
that we're talking about slow CPU & peripherals and there no meaning of discussion
for modern systems and this fact can't be changed since Pa4X arrival.
Also don't forget that sample data retention must be done only in a very fast media
since we have no DFD option (streaming from disk) and flash devices & SSDs are
completely inappropriate (2000 slower of required speed) .
Charger is indeed fed by a LPD power supply as you mentioned !
By the way I have never seen a commercial system designed to retain the whole Ram
array of 4-16 Gb when power - supply is off.

Battery option for fast start-up UMO could be avoided only if latest mask RW-ROM was
used (much expensive) , or partially loaded to Ram (DFD) method had been applied to Pa3X.

As final, I think that we all don't care about the mean but of result of this option
and since all have been designed properly the results are acceptable !

[alfredokiwi]

Hi, a DRAM device should always be refreshed, in normal and stand by or suspend mode to avoid data lost. But the problem on DRAM "self refresh mode" is that the memory controller should support it because you need to send a command first to the DRAM to change the operation mode. When suspend mode is enabled on the RAM chips samples data can´t be accessed by the EDS engine, this suspend mode is only to preserve data when the system is switched off. In other words on normal operation the EDS chip performs the memory refresh cycles, always !.

About the slow samples data transfer from SD card to memory this is another aspect, the main problem is that you can´t perform a fast data transfer if you don´t have DMA (direct memory access), a transfer mode that skips the use of "register transfer mode" on which the microprocessor acts as "intermediate" device to transfer data from one place to another. The DMA controller is a high speed bus to transfer data, in the case of Pa3X a DMA mode should be a direct data bus from SD card to RAM memory chips to enable the transfer of samples data at high speeds. The real situation is that the EDS logic core does not have implemented it, a DMA direct data bus to load the SD card samples data at high speed. In other words due the lack of a DMA controller the microprocessor need to act as "data transfer director using it internal registers" which slows down transfer speed. Because the EDS has built in the "DRAM memory controller" it need to support also the "DMA mode" for a fast samples data load. On the Triton/Tr series happens the same situation, a slow samples transfer due the lack of a DMA controller.

To summarize the slow samples transfer is not due the use of a slow microprocessor, is due the lack of a DMA (direct memory access) controller !!!.

[AntonySharmman]

alfredokiwi
I'm aware of all mentioned , since I design systems ,but I always concentrate to what we have
and not to what it ought to be , try explore pa800 or Pa2X service manual to find out what
I'm talking about , there is no need to discuss further details very familiar to us !
I never mentioned "slow samples transfer" but slow access of Flash or SSD data that real
time playing requires (<= 10 nS ).
Also there is no data tranfer during start up when ST-BY function is enabled,
that's the reason of battery , to avoid loading mobo's Nand memory contents to Ram.
Thought a faster initial data transfer seem to be wiser peripheral clocking does not provide
many choices for faster solutions ,that's why battery was a start-up option.

But talking as a consumer , when my 512 Mb Set is ready in 90 sec , when in 'edge' Kronos
almost 3 minutes are required , then I don't really give a dime of what method is used !

[alfredokiwi]

I have explained the concept of a DMA controller to put on the table the reasons of the slow transfer speed of samples. If a DMA controller would be available the load of 256 or 512 Mb of samples would be very fast without the need of a "suspend mode using a battery" to retain samples data on the DRAM chips.

That´s my point of view, for example on the Akai S3000 a sampler that dates from 1997 the use of "flash devices" as permanent user samples area for a fast start up was implemented as option but it was to expensive.

Today is another story because flash storage devices are very cheap, what I want to mean is that a flash device is another option to store information in a permanent way but with the inconvenience of the limited erase/write cycles. Flash serial devices (internal/SD card) are used in the new "Krome" as sampling working area.

[Giner]

All this stuff is way beyond me (hey, I'm just a muso ), but I do hope Paolo is reading this and is making notes for future reference. Keep up the topic, guys, and maybe even send your points of view to Paolo direct.