Why it is not possible to convert sounds from older models?

[michelkeijzers]

I get almost weekly the question if it is possible to convert programs from an older workstation to the Kronos (or any other Korg workstation), mostly in combination if this feature is part of PCG Tools.

The answer is twice No, for the following (possibly incomplete) list of reasons:
- All Korg workstations have an engine (some have more, like Oasys or Kronos). Programs cannot be converted from one engine to another, because of the different set of parameters. Mostly newer engines have more parameters which do not exist on the older parameters.
- The value ranges of parameters may differ per engine.
- Even if the value ranges are equal, the linearity (linear/exponential/logarithmic) scale can be different.
- The sample sets are different, so even if the parameters can be converted, the samples itself can be a subset or just different.
- Some workstations have hardware that other models do not have (like the analog tube of the Triton Extreme).
- The number of effects can be different.

However, there are exceptions:
- Sounds within one engine can mostly be converted, sometimes only backward. E.g.:
- programs between an M3 and M50 are compatible, with the exception of Karma functionality
- programs from the Oasys can be converted to the Kronos (but not the other way around)
- programs from the Triton are compatible (except for the analog tube functionality of the Triton Extreme).

Is there really no way to convert?
Actually some parts can be automated, but 100% conversion is probably not possible. Also, it would take a tremendous amount of time to create such software and it is out of the scope of PCG Tools. On the other hand, if someone has such a conversion, it would be great to combine it inside PCG Tools.

(although this post is only for reference reasons of course anyone can start a discussion about this topic).

Kind regards,

Michel

[Ksynth]

There ought to be a convention for all synths etc that they can conform to some standard for making such conversions easier.

[michelkeijzers]

There ought to be a convention for all synths etc that they can conform to some standard for making such conversions easier.

There are quite some reasons why this will not happen (although it would be great for customers):
- samples are proprietary and protected for synth manufacturers, so you cannot expect that these will be freely in other brand synths.
- however, it would be nice if older samples would be incorporated in newer workstations of the same brand (like having all M1, Nxxx, Tritity, Tritone etc samples in the Kronos). It would take quite some storage demands though.
- conversion of parameters is not simple, not even by synth manufacturers, but they could do the job better, since 3th party developers need to reverse engineer all parameters (not that difficult, if at all possible), but especially the values.

[Alexia]

I get almost weekly the question if it is possible to convert programs from an older workstation to the Kronos (or any other Korg workstation), mostly in combination if this feature is part of PCG Tools.

However, there are exceptions:....

- programs from the Triton are compatible (except for the analog tube functionality of the Triton Extreme).

Kind regards,
Michel

Code: Select all

Programs from my Triton Studio are compatible with Kronos!!!??
Copy and paste in PCG tools???
(then I can rebuild my favorite combi's?)
And I just discovered SNG's are compatible too???

Sorry if I'm the last one to know, but I asked and believed for a year this was not possible. This is huge good news.
If I'm not understanding the exception statement correctly please advise.

Thank you!
Much appreciation.

[JPWC]

This is why you never sell your old equipment.

And if you could transfer sounds and programs between different instruments, would not the instruments then lose their individuality.

The drag would be that I'd have no excuse to keep all my keyboards, I'd have to sell them off and give the money to my wife to buy shoes, which are individual pairs.

[MartinHines]

Programs from my Triton Studio are compatible with Kronos!!!??
Copy and paste in PCG tools???
(then I can rebuild my favorite combi's?)
And I just discovered SNG's are compatible too???

I believe he means Programs within the Triton series are compatible with one another, not with the Kronos.

[michelkeijzers]

Programs from my Triton Studio are compatible with Kronos!!!??
Copy and paste in PCG tools???
(then I can rebuild my favorite combi's?)
And I just discovered SNG's are compatible too???

I believe he means Programs within the Triton series are compatible with one another, not with the Kronos.

Yes sorry for the possible misinterpretation.

[SanderXpander]

I'm not a programmer, and I'm a little short of time at the moment, but I would be interested in a collaboration trying to map all the parameters from the Triton HI to the Kronos HD1. I have an extreme, so MOST waveforms from the Triton series and expansions are there.

[michelkeijzers]

I'm not a programmer, and I'm a little short of time at the moment, but I would be interested in a collaboration trying to map all the parameters from the Triton HI to the Kronos HD1. I have an extreme, so MOST waveforms from the Triton series and expansions are there.

Yes that would be a nice task. I know that someone tried to use a parser for the MIDI documentation to automate this, however manually it can be done too.

However, there is maybe even a better way:

- Create a very flexible set of parameters (that contain every possible parameter), let's call this set HDX
- Create a converter from HI to HDX
- Create a converter from HD1 to HDX
- Create a converter from HDX to HD1
- Create a converter from HDX to HI

Advantages:
- when a new engine (e.g. HDN) is created by Korg, only two converters need to be written (HDN to and from HDX).
- Everything can automatically be converted to/from HDN

Disadvantages:
- HDX might sometimes need to be changed, resulting in changes to every converter

[SanderXpander]

Would you be interested in the programming part of this or do you think it's too complicated per se for your app/skillz/time?
Also, I would assume we'd always be converting from older to newer synth, e.g. HI to HD1 (even if you create a superset called HDX). The benefit being (so far) that virtually all parameters from HI exist in HD1, though not the other way around. I.e., it would be a lot easier to convert from HI to HD1 than the other way around. The trickiest bit is probably the actual sample mapping.

[michelkeijzers]

Would you be interested in the programming part of this or do you think it's too complicated per se for your app/skillz/time?
Also, I would assume we'd always be converting from older to newer synth, e.g. HI to HD1 (even if you create a superset called HDX). The benefit being (so far) that virtually all parameters from HI exist in HD1, though not the other way around. I.e., it would be a lot easier to convert from HI to HD1 than the other way around. The trickiest bit is probably the actual sample mapping.

Well, actually the generic feature (converting between models) is already in the wish list, but the wish list is so big, I probably need to spend the next 10 years to implement it all (possibly full time).

Because the list is so big, I probably will not start on such a huge (sub) project as converting. However, I am interested in thinking with all of you how to do it. And we could do it in steps too, like:
- first convert some parameters and let users do the sample remapping
- gradually add parameters
- do the sample remapping (possibly also in steps).

However, I notice from my free time now the app is increasing I need more time keeping everything working. Even copy/paste is not fully working now and after this I would spend some time into SNG files. After that I'm going to do some simple things just to ask 'easy improvements/feature'. So I cannot really promise when I pick up program conversion between Korg models although I am sure it would be a great feature.