Possible setups [Can I learn from your experience?]

Techrival · Post by **Techrival** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:01 pm

[edit] Would it make more sense to just get an M50 61 KEY than what i detail below?

Hi, intro'd myself earlier in the new user forum. As stated earlier, I'm a beginner. I tend to pick up things fairly fast when driven and inspired as I feel now and have been for a couple months. BTW, budget isn't the best.. maybe 1200 or more if I'm convinced its necessary.. So Based on recommendations here's what I'm learning towards:

[[[] X50 - Said to be a Good ROMpler to start off with and leaves room to grow as my knowledge/experience progresses. More keys = better to learn proper technique vs lesser keys; so I'm told.

[[[] EMX - Drums, loops, sequencing, basically putting patterns together (thats how i understand it from the description anyhow.. x50 as potential input too?)

[[[] Ableton as a DAW? Seems highly praised everywhere i turn.. should I set my sights to something else.. Reason perhaps? I wouldn't be against getting the APC40 for Live if someone sway'd me ;P

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Concerns:

1) Trying to avoid functional overlap.. most of us aren't rich I think so I don't want too much in the way of redundancy if possible.

2) Sampling sounds like something I would definitely enjoy for music creation.. maybe it's a must but I dunno. With that, the ESX.. the description is very muddy to me, seems so similar to the EMX, aside from sampling capabilities, yet a lot of people have both *shrug* ..would the microsampler pair well with an x50?

3) Vocoders look like too much fun to pass-up.. was eyeing the KP3 for awhile to be used in conjunction with a key synth or something.

Damnit.. I just want to learn and make music but I want to make purchases that can grow with me for sometime.. I'm going to have a whole year to dedicate to this specifically. Any information, as always, is greatly appreciated.. I tried to make the post somewhat organized because I'm asking a lot of info (a lot of it is retread I'm sure but my eyes are bleeding from unsuccessfully using the 'search' feature on the forums)

To all who want to help chop down this tree-of-questions I just planted, THANK YOU!

Gargamel314 · Post by **Gargamel314** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:44 pm

well... what kind of music are you trying to produce? What are you going to use it for? M50 is freaking awesome but in a DJ kind of situation, you might want to go for the X50+EMX. Are you going to be playing music OUTSIDE your studio? b/c you might not want to anchor yourself to a computer w/ Ableton.

Techrival · Post by **Techrival** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:21 am

First off, thank you for taking the time to reply!

Well I'm mostly into hip hop and R&B but lately I've been listening to Chromeo and a lot of Daft Punk and its all great.. some versatility is definitely what I'm looking for. I'd like to be able to setup loops and patterns with relative ease (before inspiration dies) and sequence it all together into something potentially coherent. Even considering working on vocals so I know I'll have to look at mics at some point as well.. down the road.

I guess at this point I'm only really thinking of a studio type setting.. more creation than performance (does that make sense?) I've just been thinking about learning about and crafting music that I like and then sharing it with people through some receptive forum or youtube or something. Long story short, I really want to avoid functional overlap between hardware purchases, I don't want purely entry level stuff because there's a chance I'll outgrow it and regret not shelling out a little more in the beginning and at the same time I don't need super high end gear either because I don't know if this spark will fade out in a short period of time.. hopefully I can keep it going.

If I do ever gain confidence in my pieces then sure I'd be open to running a party or something like that but that's not what I'm gunnin' for initially. Although if that ended up happening, wouldn't the akai apc40 (?) be able to help with a gig? Anyhow, thanks again.. lookin' forward to yours or anyone elses replies. Peace.

dayuri · Post by **dayuri** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:50 am

Are you a keyboardist? X50 is a pretty good option, but have a play on the smaller Korgs too, and also the Alesis Micron and the smaller ones from Novation for that matter. There are a lot of nifty and quite reasonable small synths around. The Microkorg and MicrokorgXL have vocoding, but if you want to sound like Chromeo then you'll need a talkbox, but you can make those yourself for less than $30 or so.

If you're wanting to make accurate loops quickly, then I can't recommend the DS-10 enough. Plus you get to look awesome playing a nintendo on stage.

Don't worry about if anything is "entry level". You get entry level guitars, but you don't really get entry level synths, or at least its not really helpful to think of them in that way. One of my favorite synths is an 8 bit 80s casiotone I got for $2.

Ableton is a good solution too. I don't use it personally, but I'd like to. You can do an awful lot with just a laptop, ableton lite and a couple of those nanokeys.

I don't rate the Microsampler very highly, but that may be just me.

Since you have a pretty good budget the first thing I'd buy would be the new Radias. Its so damn cool.

Techrival · Post by **Techrival** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:39 am

Good stuff, good stuff. Thanks for your reply.

The reason I'm looking at the x50 is because it was recommended that if I want to learn proper technique on a keyboard I would want to go with one that had at least 61 keys and all the micro synths don't cut it. Plus when I think about it, it would be nice to just be able to practice without the computer on all the time so that rules out getting just a midi controller. Aside from all that.. I've been researching live and also propellerheads new 'record' and I think I'm probably going to go with live and get one of its controllers.. either the novation one or the akai apc40. Basically the setup (the theorized one anyway) would be x50, pc desktop (i know.. everyone says get a mac.. maybe in future) running live and apc40. All the tutorials I've found on live have just amped me up even more. Side note: is the askvideo tutorial series pretty decent and comprehensive? Thinkin about picking that up as well. Last thing, why do you recommend the Radias so highly? Alright, take it easy.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:24 am

If you're thinking about getting the X50, I'd just go with the M50 instead. it has those few extra features that will take it much further.

I have the TR, which is basically an X50 with a sequencer, aftertouch, sampling option... If i had to go out and buy again I'd get the M50 because the X50/TR/MicroX effect system is so limiting. the M50 has about three to four times the effects power. plus the new drum tracks on the M50 mean you don't have to use up an ARP for backing drums, and the chord triggers would be nice to have... similarly the M50's touchscreen makes everything so easy.

and the filters on the M50 and M3 have a much more useable sound to them. the triton engine in the TR etc has awful resonance that sounds like a sine wave just mixed in and the filters feel more like simple tone controls. on the M50 and M3 they actually sound like real VA synth filters.

dayuri · Post by **dayuri** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:35 am

Techrival wrote: Last thing, why do you recommend the Radias so highly? Alright, take it easy.

I'm sort of lusting after the Radias at the moment because of its flexibility, amount of real time controls, and I think it sounds pretty good. Plus it looks fantastic and folds away tidily. I do a lot of traveling, so a single board which "does it all" really appeals. Beyond that you might want to check out the Radias forum, there's a lot of info to be had on this website.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:41 am

The Radias is truly an amazing synthesizer. If it had a grand piano sample then I would just have two of them and have that as my 'workstation'.
Since I got the Radias I only use the TR as a controller, and for piano and occasionally other sounds when I've used up all the timbres of polyphony on the Radias.

It is fantastic at creating any kind of sound you can imagine - almost at least. But it is not a workstation - you will struggle to make full tracks on it without something to sequence properly or record audio like a DAW or keyboard workstation.

then again, I think you would struggle to outgrow the Radias. it is a very deep and complex machine, but the front panel makes it so easy to dive right in and start programming your own sounds. and it is a joy to play.

Personally, the best all around solution I would suggest is a workstation and a VA. Like an older Triton and the Radias - then you get sampling and synthesis, old and new, workstation and synth. The new KORG gear has this hi-fi sound, whilst the older synths are thicker and bolder. so you're getting a good mix. There will always be some functional or sound overlap.

dayuri · Post by **dayuri** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:47 pm

Interesting post. What are the shortfalls of the sequencer, X-trade? You mention if it had a good piano sample you'd have two of them and use them as a "workstation". Is this because one would be too limited in polyphony?

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:17 am

There is no sequencer, not like on a workstation. it has step sequencers, not a song sequencer. But they can't even change to different patterns in performance like you can on the EMX. They are little more than glorified arpeggiators. However they are polyphonic.

Its not an issue for me playing live, and in the studio I use a software DAW. the quality of sound from the Radias is beautiful. It goes from deep bass, to soaring, screaming leads, to dense, complex, evolving pads. Organs are fairly good, EPs are nice... even an acoustic guitar, bass, slap bass, string section samples...
Wavesequencing is very fun too. the only thing it lacks in sounds is an acoustic piano. I don't use piano much, but its is really the only thing I use the TR for now.

as for using two of them, 24 notes of polyphony is usually plenty, although having the extra timbres, arpeggiator, and step sequencers would be the most important part for me. the radias is only four part multitimbral, so having the extra one would bring that to eight.
thats eight timbres, 18 effects, two arpeggiators, four step sequencers... I have a lead on the Radias I've called 48OSC lead - it has all of the unison features and both oscillators on each timbre... Imagine expanding that to 96 oscillators.

from what I've heard from the M50 and M3, they are of the same generation of the Radias and feature a very similar sound. as I've said the synthesis is of a much higher detail and quality than the HI engine in the triton series.
I wouldn't recommend the Radias as a first synth but a workstation is a good place to start that will come with lots of good preloaded sounds covering all basses. The Radias comes with some awful dance, trance, and other electronica patches, but as a true synthesizer only starts to come alive once you start programming your own sounds.

Techrival · Post by **Techrival** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:40 pm

X-Trade wrote:from what I've heard from the M50 and M3, they are of the same generation of the Radias and feature a very similar sound. as I've said the synthesis is of a much higher detail and quality than the HI engine in the triton series. I wouldn't recommend the Radias as a first synth but a workstation is a good place to start that will come with lots of good reloaded sounds covering all basses. The Radias comes with some awful dance, trance, and other electronica patches, but as a true synthesizer only starts to come alive once you start programming your own sounds.

Everywhere I turn people say if you're thinking about the m50, save up a bit and just get the m3 because the sound is so amazing and it has a lot more to offer such as a sampler (something I'm sure I'll feel I need down the road). So the direction in which I lean changes again... *huff* heh. I am genuinely serious about dedicating my year in Bahrain to learning all I can about music theory, creation and playing the keyboard. I know a year isn't very long in the grand scheme of things but I'll be virtually living in a bubble and will be able to focus since my family is unable to accompany me. Hopefully the m3 will give me a good foundation and platform from which to start. Is a DAW even required or recommended for use with a workstation like the m3? *Shrug* Anyhow.. thanks for all the replies guys, much appreciated. If you have anything else to add, I would love to hear it. Hopefully I'll have some content to offer in the year to come. Take care.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:30 pm

a DAW is basically the computer equliviant of the sequencing features that are already in the keyboard.

It really depends on your preference on how you work, but the whole point of a Workstation is that it can create an entire track from start to finish, if you wish to.

personally, I'd say that, whilst a DAW is great, it is adding more complexity to the situation, will take more time to set up, more issues to work around.

one piece of gear that does everything is a much easier way to start.

Synthoid · Post by **Synthoid** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:06 pm

Techrival wrote:Everywhere I turn people say if you're thinking about the m50, save up a bit and just get the m3 because the sound is so amazing and it has a lot more to offer

The M3 does have a lot to offer. If you want sampling capabilities, X-Y pad, a better keybed, and of course KARMA....just to mention a few things, then that's the keyboard to buy. I have owned one for almost 2 years now and it's my favorite workstation, both in the studio and especially for live use.

Better to buy something you will grow into, not out of.

Techrival · Post by **Techrival** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Synthoid wrote:Better to buy something you will grow into, not out of.

You said it, brotha. M3 it is! ..any recommendations on where I should buy it? Best prices I see for NEW m3's hover at about 1800 dollars. If anyone knows of a great online site where I get the most bang for my buck (i.e. free shipping, free accessories or what not) so far lookin' at zzounds and american musical. Thanks again everyone. I'm totally jazzed about all this! ..who says jazzed? honestly.

dayuri · Post by **dayuri** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:51 pm

Thanks for the reply X-trade. Sounds interesting, I'm probably going to go play on one today - not that I can afford one.....

As an alternative to workstations, I'm able to do it all on my Micron. They're a bit more expensive than a microkorg, but very cheap. They have a 32 step sequencer and a setup mode where you can assign various drum/synth sequences/arpeggios/etc to the key(s) of your choice. You can have unlimited layers, until you run out of voices anyway. It sounds good, the only downside is you'll be spending quite a bit of time in submenu dungeons. Making new sounds on it is not very easy for someone who doesn't know the ins and outs of reductive synthesis either. Full sized keys, though not very many of them. I think its very underrated though IMO.