let's settle the sync problem once and for all

salamanderanagram · Post by **salamanderanagram** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:30 pm

while i agree that this *appears* to be a software problem at this point, i'm not %100 sure this is the case.

if it were, it seems like an easy fix so i'm guessing that we're missing something; because if it were easy for korg to have fixed this, they quite surely would prefer to do that than have a crippled piece of kit out there.

i'm thinking maybe because of the whole samples per second thing outlined above, perhaps the only way for the KP3 to get a proper switch in BPM would be to re-write the audio data, which it can't do without stopping the sound??

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:43 am

sooshee, you can edit the samples to match using only the KP3 without software.

What I did in the software by changing the ORIGINAL BPM to change the sample length can be done on the KP3 directly, just in a different way. You just need to resample the 124BPM loop2 to another pad at 120BPM. The resample will then have the exact same sample length as loop1.

I decided to do my own samples generated from the Kaossilator, because your loop2 isn't very clean: it's noisy and has a edit click in it.

It's also much easier and better to work with more than one beat samples, so that you can trim it on the KP3 to get rid of any click at the beginning or end. So I used 4 beat samples. If you only use one beat, then everything is more sensitive because the sample is so short that you don't have much leeway to cut. With four beats, you can just use the two middle beats if you want. Your loops also have audio that starts immediately at the beginning, which makes it a bit harder for yourself to align with resamples that will have some lead time. You can still edit it, and I did so with your samples just to be sure, but so I'm just saying that it's a bit more work.

So here's what I did. I sampled a 120BPM kick from the K04 to [A], and a 124BPM kick to , at 4 beats in length. That gave me two loops like yours (but cleaner). My samples also had some lead time, since I sampled them live. Both play cleanly with no clicks.

Then I resampled to [D], also at 4 beats. Now [D] is the same sample length as [A]. But resampling caused a click, so I removed it by removing the leading and trailing beat of the 4 (between them was the click). I removed slice 1,2, and 7,8. That leaves the two clean beats in the middle. Now all I had to do was align [D] with [A], because even though they are now the same length, the lead time was different. So I started the both at the same time, then adjusted the start time of [D] so that they were in perfect sync.

Now I have [A] and [D] that are in perfect sync, even though [D] was created entirely using the 124BPM sample in . They both sound exactly the same, no clicks, no noise.

And no external software was needed for any of it.

sooshee · Post by **sooshee** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:37 pm

you're not telling me anything i didn't already know. yes, loops at the same BPM will sync forever. i've always stated that in my discussions in other threads. but dont you think loops at different BPM should sync too without the need of any kind of hacks, like resampling one loop to match the BPM of another one? it's obvious that the intention for the machine was to keep loops at different BPM syncronized, that's the whole reason behind pitch shifting a loop. to match the master BPM. if loop A is pitch shifted to match the master BPM, and loop B is pitch shifted also to match the master BPM, shouldnt they, in consequence, match eachother's BPM, thus stay in sync? it's obvious that somehow they got it wrong since it doesnt do that job very well. i really dont understand why you keep looking for hacks which only make one's job more difficult and time consuming (especially in a live use situation) just so that one can do a really basic task that the machine was supposed to take care off by default.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:52 pm

sooshee wrote:you're not telling me anything i didn't already know. yes, loops at the same BPM will sync forever. i've always stated that in my discussions in other threads. but dont you think loops at different BPM should sync too without the need of any kind of hacks, like resampling one loop to match the BPM of another one? it's obvious that the intention for the machine was to keep loops at different BPM syncronized, that's the whole reason behind pitch shifting a loop. to match the master BPM. if loop A is pitch shifted to match the master BPM, and loop B is pitch shifted also to match the master BPM, shouldnt they, in consequence, match eachother's BPM, thus stay in sync? it's obvious that somehow they got it wrong since it doesnt do that job very well. i really dont understand why you keep looking for hacks which only make one's job more difficult and time consuming (especially in a live use situation) just so that one can do a really basic task that the machine was supposed to take care off by default.

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know? Here's your previous theory, that I've shown is completely and utterly wrong.

sooshee wrote: 3. that might very well be the case. as i've said before the loops actually drift relative to the internal clock, but they drift at different speed depending on their actual BPM and the playback BPM, some weird playing ecuation is derived from those two BPM's i dunno... i actually do have a theory why that happens, i think that the calculations on the kp3 are done using integer numbers, so naturally some truncations take place, i'm a programmer so i can elaborate this if you want... anyway, the effect is that, as a consequence, the loops drift from eachother. i reached the conclusion that they drift from the internal clock after playing a single loop with a drumloop effect on top (the DRM fx on the kp3). and the loop drifts away from the drumloop. again, some BPM combos have more drastic drifts. the natural conclusion is that the drumloop has no reason to drift since that would imply that all time effects (delays, loopers, LFO's) would drift from the clock. its more plausible that the sampled loops do.

The drift is because the samples have different lengths. That's something you apparently didn't know, or perhaps you still don't know.

I'm not looking for hacks. I'm not using hacks. I'm using the built-in features that are provided. Resampling is no hack, it's the most obvious and friggen simple thing to do. I can get my samples in perfect sync using exactly the same conditions as you describe, one loop at 120BPM and another at 124BPM. It works for me. It doesn't take any effort at all, and less than a minute to do (3 buttons and 16 beats of time), and if I didn't care about editing out the minor click when resampling (as you had a click in your loop2) then it would take hardly any time at all.

Then you bitch about me for explaining how to keep them in sync? First I give you a way using the software that takes all of 5 seconds to do. Then you bitch that you want a way using the hardware and not the software. Then I give you that. Then you bitch some more.

YOU ASKED people to not just vote but to post their RESULTS. My RESULTS are SYNCED LOOPS. You seem to only want people to post who agree with you.

Yeah, Yeah, I know you're going to bitch some more. Go on. You can't resist.

sooshee · Post by **sooshee** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:41 pm

My RESULTS are SYNCED LOOPS

lol. the way you had loops sync was to resample one of the loops to make it the same BPM with the other, while my complaint is that loops with different BPMs cant keep in sync. why are you on this thread? you've been off topic for the whole time...

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:32 am

Your poll proves otherwise. And I only voted once.

I've still got synced loops, and you don't. I stopped two loops that were playing for more than an hour in perfect time, even though they were originally sampled at different rates.

Ready to bitch some more? If you spent more time sampling and less time bitchin', maybe it would do you some good.

sooshee · Post by **sooshee** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:10 am

Your poll proves otherwise. And I only voted once.

lol. dude, are you for real? my poll at this moment proves that there are more people have sync problems than people that dont. not to mention that one of the voters who voted "yes" did so without even downloading the loops and your "yes" vote doesnt count since you resampled the loop to make it work. i only voted once too. lol. can you even vote more than one time?

now please stop this personal vendeta you seem to have and you go bitching somewhere else. it's getting ridiculous. you're obviously trying to get people to think things are ok, when the poll says otherwise. what's your personal interest in this i dont know and i dont care. or maybe you dont know any better. anyway, you stated your opinion, you can stop now. let people who are truly interested in getting this potential problem aknowledged and consequently fixed (hopefully) do the voting.

Tage · Post by **Tage** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:48 am

So,,, Has anyone heard my loops go out of sink?

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:59 pm

sooshee wrote:
Your poll proves otherwise. And I only voted once.
lol. dude, are you for real? my poll at this moment proves that there are more people have sync problems than people that dont. not to mention that one of the voters who voted "yes" did so without even downloading the loops and your "yes" vote doesnt count since you resampled the loop to make it work. i only voted once too. lol. can you even vote more than one time?

now please stop this personal vendeta you seem to have and you go bitching somewhere else. it's getting ridiculous. you're obviously trying to get people to think things are ok, when the poll says otherwise. what's your personal interest in this i dont know and i dont care. or maybe you dont know any better. anyway, you stated your opinion, you can stop now. let people who are truly interested in getting this potential problem aknowledged and consequently fixed (hopefully) do the voting.

Your vote is pointless because you only want people who agree with you to vote, and you dismiss everyone who disagrees with you. That's not a "vote". It's a sham masquarading as a vote.

I have no agenda here. I'm just another KP3 owner. I don't work for Korg. And I never said there isn't a problem. I identified the nature of the problem and provided two different solutions. I didn't deny that a problem existed - only that I'm satified with the solutions. I don't need Korg to fix the problem. If they did provide an easier way to fix it, that would be fine to me, but it isn't a very significant problem since I can easily fix the problem in less than 30 seconds.

I have no vendetta against you. I don't even know you. You posed a problem. I provided two different solutions. Then you started bitching about why I was giving the solutions. The reason why is because I think it's helpful to give people possible solutions to problems they experience with syncing two loops sampled at different BPMs. If you don't care, that's fine by me, but others may find these solutions useful, as I have.

But I'm NOT going away simply because you don't like what I say. If you don't like that, then YOU can go away anytime you wish. Too bad for you.

As a point of comparison, guess how you edit the lengths of samples on the SP-404? Yes, indeed, you resample them. In fact, you have to resample them multiple times because it only lets you trim a small amount each time. So the KP3 is better in this regard since you only have to resample once. And the KP3 has editor software to see the samples and edit them, while the SP-404 doesn't. On the 404 resampling is no hack either, since it's the only way to permantly edit samples provided by the hardware.

sooshee · Post by **sooshee** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:59 pm

I didn't deny that a problem existed

the sole purpose of this thread is to aknowledge that the majority of kp3, if not all, have that problem. not to find workarounds. i'm familiar with the resampling thing. it doesnt do it for me. i dont have the energy to explain why that workaround is wrong on so many levels. bottom line is: the machine doesnt do what its supposed to do. end of story. i dont care what the sp404 does. i bought a kp3.

salamanderanagram · Post by **salamanderanagram** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:10 pm

"the sole purpose of this thread is to aknowledge that the majority of kp3, if not all, have that problem. not to find workarounds"

you basically just said your sole purpose is to complain, not to fix anything. i doubt many of us here feel the same way. thanks xmlguy, for explaining how this works.

sooshee · Post by **sooshee** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:45 pm

lol. i said earlier in this thread that the purpose is to have as many people as possible aknowledge the problem and maybe that way korg would provide some fix. i cant say the same thing over and over and over in every f*ck*ng reply. i have absolutely no doubt that the problem is in every unit out there. i tested 2 different units and they both had the exact same problem. i just want the unit to work as it was supposed to. why is that so hard for some people to understand? people who are satisfied with the workaround xmlguy provided should stop posting on this thread. we get it. you're happy with your toy. the rest of us isnt.

salamanderanagram · Post by **salamanderanagram** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:54 pm

"the purpose is to have as many people as possible aknowledge the problem beyond reasonable doubt "

yeah, because the 100+ forum topics complaining about problems with sync didn't already accomplish that. maybe i'm just sick of beating dead horses?

"the rest of us isnt.[sic]"

i've yet to see anybody join in your thread complaining about this issue. so far it's just been you trying to be a forum nazi and tell people what they can and can't post about.

well guess what?
we'll post whatever the f*ck we want in this thread. korg isn't going to fix this problem. i've already mentioned a pretty strong case for why it's a hardware problem and not software.

sooshee · Post by **sooshee** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:01 pm

lol. i'm no nazi and i have no idea why the other people who also voted "no" didnt give a reply too and left me alone to argue the workaround guys. maybe they just dont give a s**t. in that case they and you guys deserve all the broken hardware you got and all of you are KORG's bitches for accepting whatever s**t they send your way.

salamanderanagram · Post by **salamanderanagram** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:18 pm

"and you guys deserve all the broken hardware you got"

my hardware isn't "broken". it does exactly what i want it to. just because you don't like the work flow doesn't make the gear "broken".

"all of you are KORG's bitches "

that's pretty rich coming from the guy who advertises all is korg gear in his signature. so, after you were so devastated by the KP3 you went out and grapped a mini KP + kaossilator?? genius.

Korg Forums

let's settle the sync problem once and for all

are the loops still in perfect sync after 1 minute?