Proposal - New flagship PA2x and M3 RADIAS combined

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:21 pm

Korg have recently launched a new variant of the Pa800 with a new sample ROM containing oriental samples. I'm sorry to say it, but it's not terribly exciting news for me at least.

So ... what would be exciting? ... what would make a musician like me sell both my M3 and Pa2x to purchase a new flagship arranger? Here is a specific proposal for a new product.

1. I believe that it is a big mistake for a flagship arranger keyboard to be designed with factory samples in ROM. The Korg M3 stores factory samples in SSD and RAM. Korg recently completely reworked and improved all the original factory samples. Then the M3 was relaunched with exactly the same hardware, but with a new much expanded OS and sounds and samples, and is now called the M3 XPanded. The Pa800 and Pa2x have an internal FLASH device (the SSD) and the Pa800 has 64 Mbytes of sample RAM and the Pa2x has 128/256 Mbytes. The incremental cost of doubling the SSD memory size and providing 256 Mbytes of RAM as standard must be negligible compared with the whole life support and distribution cost of having special variants of the keyboard, like the one just announced, for every country. So, I do hope that when any new arranger keyboard is eventually introduced to become the new flagship, that serious consideration will be given by Korg to providing a design that allows upgradeable factory samples and upgradeable sample RAM with an upper limit of maybe 1 Gbyte.

2. The hardware design should permit upgrades and add-ons for those who want them. For example the user should be able to purchase extra sample RAM, and be able to easily configure and customise samples and sounds and styles from a download site, add a RADIAS like synth card, and add an advanced arpeggiator such as Karma.

3. The mechanical design should cater for many different variants from a common core unit. For example, the design of the M3 is very clever. With a single M3-module design, which is demountable and tiltable, the module can be used stand-alone, or it can be attached to a 61-note, a 73-note or an 88-note keybed. The support and maintenance costs are minimised in this way, Korg could sell upgraded keybeds, and owners can quickly demount the core module and use it as a MIDI expander if they wish.

The Pa2x/Pa800 and the M3 are very innovative and have strengths and weaknesses. If a fusion of the technology and best ideas on both product lines could be achieved, specifically in the areas mentioned above, then this would then become my ideal keyboard and I would sell both my M3 and Pa2x to buy one. Japanese companies are reputably very good at fusion technologies where product lines are initially developed in parallel to test the market, and then are cross-fertilised.

Who else with a Pa2x and some other keyboard would sell both to purchase a new flagship arranger-workstation that played live like a Pa2x and sounded as great and as dynamic as an M3 and could be expanded at extra cost with RADIAS synth sound capabilities and Karma? How much demand would there be for a product like this?

Best regards,
Rob

a.schemkes · Post by **a.schemkes** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:43 pm

and we call it OASYA (Open Architecture Synthesis Arranger)

(or just OASYS EXPANDED)

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:44 pm

+1...I want one!
Rob,
I bugged Kurzweil more than once to build a TOTL arranger based on the superb PRO synth they have.

If Korg had such a beast as you described...it would be hot!

However, there sure is a lot of folks that just want a reasonable price MOTL arranger. Turn it on and play...no more.

I think a ton of people would buy it as many do like features from both worlds. FULL MIDI implemtatio is critical.

There will be politics here

Which group would own this beast?

Lee

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:33 pm

Yes, we shall call it OASYA with a price tag of at least 8000.00$.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:51 pm

Nedim,
Darn it don't say $8,000...(Korg is listening) they might think that is an OK price.

We want it for $3999. Base, then more RAM ect can be upgrades (Please use standard RAM chips, not Korg only).

It needs to be cheaper than Audya.

Are you comming to the Ft. Wayne Fiesta on March 15th?

Lee

hitman · Post by **hitman** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:20 pm

It should also be built using QUALITY composite materials, unlike the pa800. It should have better keys than the current CASIO like ones.
Jesus, I could go on and on about this.....Come on somebody buy my PA800, I need to get a Roland and play some music finally!

abo59 · Post by **abo59** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:50 pm

Lee wrote:We want it for $3999. Base, then more RAM ect can be upgrades (Please use standard RAM chips, not Korg only).

How about a free upgrade for current Pa2x owners?

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:05 am

If Ted drives me, i hate AirPlanes...ahahahaha.

mrkorg · Post by **mrkorg** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:11 am

Hi Rob,

Great proposal, but the truth is it will never happen. You have to convince Korg Italy that they were wrong to put factory sounds in ROM. You very well know that the M3 was released before the PA2X, and the PA2X utilizes alot of the technology of the M3, the question is why didn't they follow the procedure implemented in the M3 to design sounds in SSD and RAM???. I think it was deliberately designed that way not because they had no other methods available. Maybe the next PA in 4 years time will have some slight changes based upon its workstation counterpart, possibly the M4.

In reality they are a business and have two dedicated markets. If they combine the PA2X and the M3 or even the OASYS into one keyboard, It will be a dramatic slump in profits, unless they sell each unit at about $15-20000 USD.

nikola81 · Post by **nikola81** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:48 am

We have to accept the fact that no company will ever make a perfect keyboard. That would be disaster for that company. Everybody would buy it and then what? What after that? Something similar had happened in car industry when they produced a car that had no failures, whole that production line was sold and nobody had to buy spare parts cause there didn't need it. The company almost got closed.
There is always gonna be something that is gonna be put in a next keyboard but the are gonna take something else out.
If they make a pa2x with m3 who would buy m3, i know i won't.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:09 am

OK it may never happen.

But I like to use arpeggiated Karma rhythms with some music, styles with other music etc. I love the EXB-Radias synth sounds. I definitely like all the arranger controls on the Pa2x and I feel hamstrung with using the M3 by itself ijn a live gig, because it does not have controls or variations suitable for live performances.

Can it really be that difficult for all this to come together in a single keyboard product? Is it really necessary to lug around two keyboards and a 2-up stand to every gig?

I think that if Korg do not do it then someone else will. Karma Labs are aalready working with other manufacturers such as Open Labs, and I think if the arranger team in Korg do not avail themselves of the existing relationship with Karma Labs, then another company with strong arranger product will do it to steal the edge from Korg.

Best regards,
Rob

nikola81 · Post by **nikola81** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:27 am

Rob Sherratt wrote:OK it may never happen.

Can it really be that difficult for all this to come together in a single keyboard product? Is it really necessary to lug around two keyboards and a 2-up stand to every gig?

Best regards,
Rob

Well it did happened, if you look at the things this way.
10-15 years age you had arranger keyboards with factory sounds only, no sequencer, no sampling ability, no multi fx, just simple arranger. On the other side you had workstations with sampling, sequencing and multiple fx ability, no styles or variations...
Now you have Pa2x... the dream came true... but meantime the invented karma, new sound controls... So it needs time... I don't say it wont happen the same, but they are gonna invent something else that we will always want and think:"I want that..."
And other thing, what happened with good old playing? Now almost everybody is relaying on intros, midis, styles, samples, loops... Does anybody plays a keyboard, i mean really plays... I know there are people who would stone me for bringing this but everything we wanted 10-20 years ago is here, we just need to play, like when we had dx7, m1, d50...
Sorry if i was little hard and i don't have intention to insult anyone. This is only my opinion.

mrkorg · Post by **mrkorg** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:30 am

Rob Sherratt wrote:OK it may never happen.

But I like to use arpeggiated Karma rhythms with some music, styles with other music etc. I love the EXB-Radias synth sounds. I definitely like all the arranger controls on the Pa2x and I feel hamstrung with using the M3 by itself ijn a live gig, because it does not have controls or variations suitable for live performances.

Can it really be that difficult for all this to come together in a single keyboard product? Is it really necessary to lug around two keyboards and a 2-up stand to every gig?

I think that if Korg do not do it then someone else will. Karma Labs are aalready working with other manufacturers such as Open Labs, and I think if the arranger team in Korg do not avail themselves of the existing relationship with Karma Labs, then another company with strong arranger product will do it to steal the edge from Korg.

The question isn't whether or not it can be done, we all know it can be done. This is how all companies operate, It is a marketing strategy. Look at it this way, the PA1X had 16MB of RAM expandable to 32 MB in 2003 when it was produced. In 2007 the PA2X has 128 MB upgradable to 256 MB. Is this the best Korg to do? obviously not, we know current technology allows for 20X better than that. It isn't in any companies interests to produce a product which completely satisfies the needs of thier consumers. Like Nikola said, if they produce a complete product what more do they have to produce?

Consumerism in the 21st century is mankinds worst nightmare. Having said that i see Korg as one of the best and most ethical companies committed to it's consumers, however there are boundaries which from a business/financial perspective they know can't be crossed.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:24 pm

Rob,
What do you think of merging a PA2XPRO with a M3 MODULE?
Since you have both...what would the integration look like (MIDI of course). The Module could be mouted up on the left side of the PA wit a custom made mount (by me) and be readily available to tweek etc.

Just an idea.
I am concerned about resale of just a M3 modulevs one with a KB also, Just in case we get the animal you have recommended. some day

Lee

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:17 pm

Hi Lee,

That's almost what I am doing (via MIDI) except I have an M3-73 with EXB_Radias, and I want to retain the use of the second keyboard. I have a nice 2-up stand on order from Thomann. It also has a laptop support arm and a music stand built in. Should be here mid March, when I can post some photos of the hardware setup. Then the big project starts for MIDI level integration using some custom Pa2x styles and custom Karma GE's running on the laptop with Karma-PC installed. Might be finished in a couple of years' time ....

Best regards,
Rob