I have a question:
Do you consider using factory presets cheating?
Personally I often edit existing programs heavily, sometimes just for the sake of creating a sound which is distinctively not preset. But with string pad and vocoder sounds I rarely change them (just reducing attack time on strings).
Do you consider using factory presets cheating?
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Griffin Avid
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Cheating...cheating who?
Yourself from the pleasure of creating a wholly unique sound and the joys of making a catchy tone that yours and yours alone?
Your fans/audience who may think every single piece of your music is a labour of love?
The sound designer/programmer who spent his time creating a blueprint or starting point for your musical inspirations that you use as is?
Other musicians/producers/artists who ask the question "How does he do it?" when they get answered : buy XXXX piece of gear and that's really it.
Only you know the answer to that main question. If the voice in your head is asking...you already know. Someone else can't decide that for you.
If I can't create new sounds in any piece of gear I feel limited like there is a clock of usefulness running out. There's a finite amount of value. Once you use up all the big sounds, that piece sits on the shelf until the memory of those presets fade. In any soundbank, there's only so many sound you'll like and use. That's an issue for ROMplers which is why their users tend to turn them over so quickly.
The bread and butter sounds are never an issue since those usually form the backbone or foundation of the track. It's that catchy main sound that gets old when everyone uses them and they sound real familiar.
It's those unique patches you can build a song around that cause these kind of concerns.
Yourself from the pleasure of creating a wholly unique sound and the joys of making a catchy tone that yours and yours alone?
Your fans/audience who may think every single piece of your music is a labour of love?
The sound designer/programmer who spent his time creating a blueprint or starting point for your musical inspirations that you use as is?
Other musicians/producers/artists who ask the question "How does he do it?" when they get answered : buy XXXX piece of gear and that's really it.
Only you know the answer to that main question. If the voice in your head is asking...you already know. Someone else can't decide that for you.
If I can't create new sounds in any piece of gear I feel limited like there is a clock of usefulness running out. There's a finite amount of value. Once you use up all the big sounds, that piece sits on the shelf until the memory of those presets fade. In any soundbank, there's only so many sound you'll like and use. That's an issue for ROMplers which is why their users tend to turn them over so quickly.
The bread and butter sounds are never an issue since those usually form the backbone or foundation of the track. It's that catchy main sound that gets old when everyone uses them and they sound real familiar.
It's those unique patches you can build a song around that cause these kind of concerns.
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toomanyKORGs
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good postGriffin Avid wrote:Cheating...cheating who?
Yourself from the pleasure of creating a wholly unique sound and the joys of making a catchy tone that yours and yours alone?
Your fans/audience who may think every single piece of your music is a labour of love?
The sound designer/programmer who spent his time creating a blueprint or starting point for your musical inspirations that you use as is?
Other musicians/producers/artists who ask the question "How does he do it?" when they get answered : buy XXXX piece of gear and that's really it.
Only you know the answer to that main question. If the voice in your head is asking...you already know. Someone else can't decide that for you.
If I can't create new sounds in any piece of gear I feel limited like there is a clock of usefulness running out. There's a finite amount of value. Once you use up all the big sounds, that piece sits on the shelf until the memory of those presets fade. In any soundbank, there's only so many sound you'll like and use. That's an issue for ROMplers which is why their users tend to turn them over so quickly.
The bread and butter sounds are never an issue since those usually form the backbone or foundation of the track. It's that catchy main sound that gets old when everyone uses them and they sound real familiar.
It's those unique patches you can build a song around that cause these kind of concerns.
I often hear many (particularly MicroKorg) presets in songs, and whilst its not exactly a crime, it often leaves me thinking that the artist just couldn't be bothered to do something more unique. they're just adding some keyboards for the sake of it.
Presets are mainly made to give you a template, and to show off the synth to prospective buyers.
But at the end of the day its a synthesizer - it WOULD be a crime to never even adjust the presets. the whole idea of a synthesizer is to craft unique and unusual sounds (or maybe just something nice...). the first thing I did after a week was wipe all of the sounds, and put all of my favourite presets into the 'vocoder' bank.
personally I think you'll not just sound better, but get more enjoyment from crafting your own sounds. typically I like to make a complete sound from scratch for each track. A bit like they would have had to do it before they invented presets.
Presets are mainly made to give you a template, and to show off the synth to prospective buyers.
But at the end of the day its a synthesizer - it WOULD be a crime to never even adjust the presets. the whole idea of a synthesizer is to craft unique and unusual sounds (or maybe just something nice...). the first thing I did after a week was wipe all of the sounds, and put all of my favourite presets into the 'vocoder' bank.
personally I think you'll not just sound better, but get more enjoyment from crafting your own sounds. typically I like to make a complete sound from scratch for each track. A bit like they would have had to do it before they invented presets.
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Griffin Avid
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There were synths that were hard to program- usually from terrible interfaces, where the players only used the presets.
ROMplers in many ways are the exception since the sound of the preset is what you're after. That begs the question, can the sound designers behind...let's say the MS2000 or Radias create a good enough sound/preset to be on one of my records?
It's a bit pretentious to think they could not. After you've kicked out the presets and programmed your own sounds, do you knwo what you have? A bank of presets. Sure, they're yours, but to everyone else who doesn't own the board- they don't know and probably don't care?
I program sounds because I need more of them. If I found a fitting preset I would use it. It's just not going to happen that someone else can design EVERY sound to match my own artistic sensibilities or provide enough of them to last for my time making music.
When you first get something- there's that great inspirational time when all the sounds are new and inspiring. I think bands, like anyone else- get something fresh and jam. So you hear the presets right then. Over time, as the owner gets to know his gear- he dives in and does more than sound surf.
ROMplers in many ways are the exception since the sound of the preset is what you're after. That begs the question, can the sound designers behind...let's say the MS2000 or Radias create a good enough sound/preset to be on one of my records?
It's a bit pretentious to think they could not. After you've kicked out the presets and programmed your own sounds, do you knwo what you have? A bank of presets. Sure, they're yours, but to everyone else who doesn't own the board- they don't know and probably don't care?
I program sounds because I need more of them. If I found a fitting preset I would use it. It's just not going to happen that someone else can design EVERY sound to match my own artistic sensibilities or provide enough of them to last for my time making music.
When you first get something- there's that great inspirational time when all the sounds are new and inspiring. I think bands, like anyone else- get something fresh and jam. So you hear the presets right then. Over time, as the owner gets to know his gear- he dives in and does more than sound surf.
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Griffin backed off some of this in his second post, and he's a smart guy as I see him around the various forums. No disrespect for Griffin therefore. However, let me give you the flip side of the preset issue.Griffin Avid wrote:Cheating...cheating who?
Yourself from the pleasure of creating a wholly unique sound and the joys of making a catchy tone that yours and yours alone?
Your fans/audience who may think every single piece of your music is a labour of love?
The sound designer/programmer who spent his time creating a blueprint or starting point for your musical inspirations that you use as is?
Other musicians/producers/artists who ask the question "How does he do it?" when they get answered : buy XXXX piece of gear and that's really it.
Only you know the answer to that main question. If the voice in your head is asking...you already know. Someone else can't decide that for you.
If I can't create new sounds in any piece of gear I feel limited like there is a clock of usefulness running out. There's a finite amount of value. Once you use up all the big sounds, that piece sits on the shelf until the memory of those presets fade. In any soundbank, there's only so many sound you'll like and use. That's an issue for ROMplers which is why their users tend to turn them over so quickly.
The bread and butter sounds are never an issue since those usually form the backbone or foundation of the track. It's that catchy main sound that gets old when everyone uses them and they sound real familiar.
It's those unique patches you can build a song around that cause these kind of concerns.
Janet Jackson made a huge hit record "What Have You Done for Me Lately" -- its signature sound is the Yamaha DX preset Solid Bass. Did her fans "who may think every single piece of your music is a labour of love" feel cheated? Did they even know (or care)?
In fact, DX programming is well-known to be difficult, so there was an entire period of time in the 80s where most of the sounds heard were either presets or produced by sound designer (note: Griffin later alludes to this). The question is though is that music intrinsically compromised somehow? Hopefully not.
As for the sound designers - if they are from the manufacturer (i.e., Korg's in the case of the MicroKorg), they are undoubtedly happy that you like the presets as that may have influenced your purchase decision, which keeps them employed and their company solvent. If you purchased sounds from a sound designer, again, that person is likely happy that you enjoy the sounds enough to pay for them. There are also many sound designers who generously donate their patches for your use as a "preset" - they of course enjoy sharing and so I am sure they don't mind in the least.
As for the other musicians issue, the list of well-known musicians who have used presets is too long to mention. Does anyone look with scorn on Phil Collins for his use of a Roland drum machine preset on "In the Air Tonight"? Or Blondie for another preset from the same piece of gear? I don't think there's anyone around who would answer the question "How does Phil Collins do it" with the reply "buy XXXX piece of gear and that's really it". There's much more to Phil Collins than that, and hopefully there is for yours too.
As for ROMplers getting turned over, again you can tweak the ROM presets just like you can tweak presets. So the people who are turning these over are missing an opportunity to be creative. Is that a limitation of ROMplers or the buyers? Check out Artemio's work over at Fantomized.info if you disagree - his Tweakbook is a work of art.
As for cheating yourself, I'd say that's a possibly mixed bag. I like programming my own patches, in the M/K, the DX, and others. But hey sometimes I have cheated myself of valuable time by wasting a lot of time on crummy patches that frankly aren't going to see the light of day. The good news is that is Griffin is right - it can be a real thrill to make a great patch.
So again I like programming my own patches, but that doesn't mean it's right for you in your current tune. I'd suggest you do what sounds right for your music and if that means using someone else's sonic contribution, it's not something to go to confession for. Everything in music is a blend of new stuff and borrowed stuff. Work on making your music great, and if this means writing your own patches, cool - if not, that's cool too.
Good luck with your music!
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Griffin Avid
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The toughest part about making a hard line is - there is always someone whos more of a purist.
Are loops cheating?
Is sampling cheating?
Is nabbing a melody from another song/record cheating?
Is quantize cheating?
Is MIDI editing cheating?
Is making drum patterns with anything besides drum sticks cheating?
The Korg Electribe series is (basically) a preset house of demo songs you are meant to flip into your own compositions. Yes, some of them sample, but if you remember how hard it is/was to erase the songs in the original line you understood their purpose.
Many tools ship with preset songs and even patterns. Are they there to play along with or to let me know what a song of mine might sound like if I buy said piece?
Is it okay to use a preset pattern? The Motif series has them for every sound. I'm sure many of the other Korg boards have more than just a demo or two embedded. what about KARMA?
Certainly in some cases there are issues with using the songs/compositions as is, but where's the artistic/creative line there?
I can't reduce it all to what the fans/audience knows or cares about. Without sounding rude, I should know more and care about the details and the process more than them. That's why I'm the thing worth having fans and an audience.
Are loops cheating?
Is sampling cheating?
Is nabbing a melody from another song/record cheating?
Is quantize cheating?
Is MIDI editing cheating?
Is making drum patterns with anything besides drum sticks cheating?
The Korg Electribe series is (basically) a preset house of demo songs you are meant to flip into your own compositions. Yes, some of them sample, but if you remember how hard it is/was to erase the songs in the original line you understood their purpose.
Many tools ship with preset songs and even patterns. Are they there to play along with or to let me know what a song of mine might sound like if I buy said piece?
Is it okay to use a preset pattern? The Motif series has them for every sound. I'm sure many of the other Korg boards have more than just a demo or two embedded. what about KARMA?
Certainly in some cases there are issues with using the songs/compositions as is, but where's the artistic/creative line there?
I can't reduce it all to what the fans/audience knows or cares about. Without sounding rude, I should know more and care about the details and the process more than them. That's why I'm the thing worth having fans and an audience.
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I would like to clarify a couple of points here,
1. Everyone uses presets, regardless of where they come from, even me!
2. Phil Collins didn't use a Roland Drum machine preset for 'In the air tonight'!
Here's a couple of quotes I think are relevant to the post in question and the preset drum sound of the 'gated drum' sound on 'In the Air Tonight'!
The first known use of this technique was by recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder on the 1976 album Velvet Darkness by jazz fusion guitarist Allan Holdsworth. The drummer on this recording was Narada Michael Walden.
The most copied first use of this technique was on the 1977 David Bowie album, Low.
The gated reverb effect began being used in popular music during the 1980s. Producer Mutt Lange was a pioneer at drenching the recorded drum sound in gated reverb. An early and prominent use of gated reverb was in Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins and Hugh Padgham's production of the third Peter Gabriel solo album.
Padgham is credited with creating the 'gated' drum sound used so prominently on Phil Collins' single "In the Air Tonight", and which became the template for much of the recorded pop drum sound of the 1980s. The effect is believed to have first been used on the 1980 third self-titled solo album by Peter Gabriel, which Padgham engineered and on which Collins played. At this time, Padgham was working regularly as the recording engineer for noted UK producer Steve Lillywhite, and they collaborated on many well-known albums and singles in the early 1980s.
Padgham's 'gated drum' effect is created by adding a large amount of heavily compressed room ambience to the original drum sound, and then feeding that reverb signal through an electronic device known as a noise gate. This unit can be programmed to cut off any signal fed through it, either after a specified time interval (in this case, some tens of milliseconds), or when the incoming signal falls below a preset volume threshold. The result is the arresting 'gated reverb' effect, in which the reverberation cuts off abruptly, rather than fading away.
In a 2006 interview, Padgham revealed how the effect was first engineered:
The whole thing came through the famous "listen mic" on the SSL console. The SSL had put this massive compressor on it because the whole idea was to hang one mic in the middle of the studio and hear somebody talking on the other side. And it just so happened that we turned it on one day when Phil [Collins] was playing his drums. And then I had the idea of feeding that back into the console and putting the noise gate on, so when he stopped playing it sucked the big sound of the room into nothing.
I'm not trying to be picky guys and gals but info needs to referenced properly
Presets are cool as well as our own sounds!, the more sounds the more music, what do you say folks?
joe
1. Everyone uses presets, regardless of where they come from, even me!
2. Phil Collins didn't use a Roland Drum machine preset for 'In the air tonight'!
Here's a couple of quotes I think are relevant to the post in question and the preset drum sound of the 'gated drum' sound on 'In the Air Tonight'!
The first known use of this technique was by recording engineer Rudy Van Gelder on the 1976 album Velvet Darkness by jazz fusion guitarist Allan Holdsworth. The drummer on this recording was Narada Michael Walden.
The most copied first use of this technique was on the 1977 David Bowie album, Low.
The gated reverb effect began being used in popular music during the 1980s. Producer Mutt Lange was a pioneer at drenching the recorded drum sound in gated reverb. An early and prominent use of gated reverb was in Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins and Hugh Padgham's production of the third Peter Gabriel solo album.
Padgham is credited with creating the 'gated' drum sound used so prominently on Phil Collins' single "In the Air Tonight", and which became the template for much of the recorded pop drum sound of the 1980s. The effect is believed to have first been used on the 1980 third self-titled solo album by Peter Gabriel, which Padgham engineered and on which Collins played. At this time, Padgham was working regularly as the recording engineer for noted UK producer Steve Lillywhite, and they collaborated on many well-known albums and singles in the early 1980s.
Padgham's 'gated drum' effect is created by adding a large amount of heavily compressed room ambience to the original drum sound, and then feeding that reverb signal through an electronic device known as a noise gate. This unit can be programmed to cut off any signal fed through it, either after a specified time interval (in this case, some tens of milliseconds), or when the incoming signal falls below a preset volume threshold. The result is the arresting 'gated reverb' effect, in which the reverberation cuts off abruptly, rather than fading away.
In a 2006 interview, Padgham revealed how the effect was first engineered:
The whole thing came through the famous "listen mic" on the SSL console. The SSL had put this massive compressor on it because the whole idea was to hang one mic in the middle of the studio and hear somebody talking on the other side. And it just so happened that we turned it on one day when Phil [Collins] was playing his drums. And then I had the idea of feeding that back into the console and putting the noise gate on, so when he stopped playing it sucked the big sound of the room into nothing.
I'm not trying to be picky guys and gals but info needs to referenced properly
Presets are cool as well as our own sounds!, the more sounds the more music, what do you say folks?
joe
Apple iMac G5 1.9Ghz 1.5Gb RAM 10.4.10, MBox 2 + MBox Mini 2, ,Shure SM58,
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www.myspace.com/joethompson63
Reason 5, Record 1.5, KLC 1.2v, Korg MS2000, BR, Korg Electribe Series Mk11, Roland JV1080, Novation A Station, Novation Bass Station, Evolution 49 M/Controller, Yamaha PSR295,300,DSR 2000, E/Acoustic CPX900, Epiphone Sheraton, Suzuki Acoustic Guitar,
Washburn RB2500 Bass Guitar, Akai Pro ME30PII, Fostex Mixer, Korg DS-10, Korg PadKontrol.
www.myspace.com/joethompson63
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Griffin Avid
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I don't think there's anyone around who would answer the question "How does Phil Collins do it" with the reply "buy XXXX piece of gear and that's really it". There's much more to Phil Collins than that, and hopefully there is for yours too.
He's not saying it was a preset. I thought it was a horrible example since it's an Analog drum machine, but I didn't feel like going back and forth when I agreed with his overall point .
And more so, if you really nit-pick it's more like affirmation that they DIDN'T just use the preset as it was, but worked it, massaged it into something new...
And now that Gated Reverb IS a preset in effect modules.
So much so that I read this whole story on the SSL site when they released the free LLC plug-in. NOW you have a whole plug-in designed around that PRESET. The irony.
He's not saying it was a preset. I thought it was a horrible example since it's an Analog drum machine, but I didn't feel like going back and forth when I agreed with his overall point .
And more so, if you really nit-pick it's more like affirmation that they DIDN'T just use the preset as it was, but worked it, massaged it into something new...
And now that Gated Reverb IS a preset in effect modules.
So much so that I read this whole story on the SSL site when they released the free LLC plug-in. NOW you have a whole plug-in designed around that PRESET. The irony.
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Wicked post!
I See where your both coming from and i think it personally depends on the artist themselves. I personally get great satisfaction when im asked "where that sound came from"? and "how'd you make that sound"? but in saying that it also depends on the feeling of the beat as well.
If you do make something that is a template, dont be suprised if people pick you up on it. Like youve stated use it, blend it...and most of all just have fun!
I See where your both coming from and i think it personally depends on the artist themselves. I personally get great satisfaction when im asked "where that sound came from"? and "how'd you make that sound"? but in saying that it also depends on the feeling of the beat as well.
If you do make something that is a template, dont be suprised if people pick you up on it. Like youve stated use it, blend it...and most of all just have fun!
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DylanG [SC]
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I agree! and have had the same thoughts regarding this. I am new to the synth world and am loving it! The creativity is endless and there is so many ways to be unique. In my own opinion I think if they use EXACTLY the same presets, than they must be pretty narrow minded. I mean whats the point of having a synthesizer if creativity isn't factored into the music or sounds that are created. Sounds are a universal language. Sometimes even if you "steal" someone elses sound and make it your own.
Dylan T.