What is half pedaling?

[Lee]

I really feel stupid to ask, but I don't know what half pedaling is and how to use it?

Thanks,
Lee

[Rob Sherratt]

When you play a note on an undamped stringed instrument (eg a harp) the other strings resonate, generating sounds spaced apart at octaves, fifths and other intervals, in fact anything that is an exact multiple of the note you played +- a few percent. So play an A3 at 220Hz, you will hear resonances of A4 at 440Hz, E5 at 660Hz, A6 at 880Hz, C#6 at 1100Hz, E6 at 1320Hz, etc, with increasing number of additional notes resonating the higher up you go.

On most acoustic pianos, depressing the sustain pedal progressively changes the amount of string resonance and the amount by which notes sustain after you play them. Half pedal results in the dampers on the upper section of the piano being lifted first. Hence the upper strings will resonate when lower notes are pressed, and will also be sustained if the note is pressed directly. Full sustain results in all dampers being lifted so that all strings can resonate and all played notes will be held. Also the highest octave is permanently "sustained" (there are no dampers) so the highest strings always resonate sympathetically.

On an electric grand piano supporting "half pedal" there would be a new set of samples with partial resonance used at "half pedal" and another set with full resonance used at "full pedal". This applies to use of the sustain pedal only. Also when you hold piano notes down, and then depress the sustain pedal it is possible in theory to switch the sounds that are playing from non-resonant sounds to resonant sounds like happens on the acoustic piano. The Korg Pa2x does not do this, but it does switch in a set of nicely resonant samples that are used on subsequently played notes.

I haven't tested what happens with "half pedal" on the Pa2x yet because I'm waiting for delivery of the DS1H sustain pedal that I ordered recently. Also there is no information from Korg to say how the Grand Piano RX and other sounds make use of the half pedal facility (if at all). I'm hoping that there is a third set of samples that are used at half pedal.

[Lee]

Rob,
Thanks... you really know your stuff!
I never dreamed there was that much to it...
OK, so now I have a question... If the sustain pedal on te PA2X is either on or off... how the heck do you get half pedaling?

Korg says half pedaling is supported in the documentation. So we need an explaination from Korg...of what / how they support it. What should we expect? How to use it?

Thanks,
Lee

[Rob Sherratt]

Rob,
Thanks... you really know your stuff! I never dreamed there was that much to it... OK, so now I have a question... If the sustain pedal on te PA2X is either on or off... how the heck do you get half pedaling? Korg says half pedaling is supported in the documentation. So we need an explaination from Korg...of what / how they support it. What should we expect? How to use it?

Thanks,
Lee

Lee,

If your sustain pedal has a single on/off switch, then you can't get "half pedal".

Like me, you need to order a Korg DS1H pedal (as stated in the manual) that has a "half pedal" switched output as well as a "full pedal" switched output. I guess that there is a two position switch inside the DS1H and it probably uses a stereo connector into the Pa2x. Maybe left channel shorted to ground is say half pedal, and right channel shorted to ground is full pedal? ... There would be no damage caused if you want to experiment with three wires soldered to a stereo jack plug and connected to the Pa2x's sustain pedal input. Dolphin Music are one Korg reseller that lists the DS1H pedal in their online catalog: www.dolphinmusic.co.uk

I think the way that Korg have implemented this is that Pedal On and Off events are mapped to the notes E9 and G9, and half pedal is mapped to F#9. If you open Grand Piano RX in sound mode and look at the basic menu and oscillators 12, 13, 14 and 15 you can see the pedal on and off RX sounds being triggered in this way. I don't know how the alternative "mid resonance" and "full resonance" samples are triggered. This was not evident when I looked in Sound Edit mode. Certainly there are a different set of sounds playing when you press a note with sustain full on.

I did some more experimenting and if you press and hold say a C6 note with sustain pedal off, and then depress sustain then the decay tail of the note is extended. There is some clever stuff going on behid the scenes that I can't work out!

[Lee]

Ah... Ha...Now I understand... yep I need to order one of the Korg pedals. I hope they are in stock at Korg USA distribution...

Thanks for taking time to investigate this thing... Maybe I don't feel so dumb now after all.
Lee

[TomBo7777]

If the Korg uses normally closed polarity you can buy a Yamaha FC-3 for almost half of what the Korg pedal costs,

EDIT: But alas the Korg uses a normally OPEN pedal switch..........

[miden]

pedals that control half-pedalling have a potentiometer attached to the pedal,(not the usual rotary one though) which enables a cc message variable between 0 and 127. when used with a keyboard that does not support half-pedalling even though it still uses the "pot", it simply turns into an on/off pedal with any cc message 0-64 being off and 65-127 being on, depending on the polarity of the keyboards socket.
IE once the pedal reaches the "half-way" point it "switches" to other value.

[Rob Sherratt]

[Deleted by Rob because the info was inaccurate}

[miden]

Rob,

The Yamaha and Roland half-pedal pedals work as I described via the sustain pedal jack and actually have nothing to do with the midi interface.

The Korg one must be different to those. I cannot understand why, but obviously they do, as you have pointed out.

However simple switches do not work as a variable switch.
Those switches are just "flip/flops" - on or off.

I would add that just because a pedal is connected via a + lead, a - lead, and a gnd lead, does not make it a variable switch.

You need some type of potentiometer to enable varying levels.

It is usually setup in the operating system of the keyboard so that the sustain jack recognises the varying messages being sent.

Messages received at the sustain input are seen as CC64 by the keyboard.

Some are rotary, like the volume knob on a stereo (most volume pedals work this way), some are like little vertical plungers, a little bit like a tiny dynamite plunger you see in cartoons, but with a return spring.

I know the Rolands are built this way as I have seen the electronics inside.

I would guess the Yamaha pedals are also the of the same or similar construction as they work in exactly the same way.

This , of course, only applies to the R+Y pedals that are capable of half pedalling. "Normal" R+Y sustain pedals just have the on/off switch.

The half-pedal pedals still have the flip/flop (as well as the "pot") which means they will still work fine on keyboards without half-pedal capabilities.

Hope that explains what I was saying a little better.

[Lee]

So, is this half pedaling thing like having sustinoto and sustain (damper) on the same pedal?
Lee

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Miden,

I will wait until my Korg DS1H sustain pedal (with half pedal point) arrives, I'll stick a multimeter on it, and then we will both know for definite whether it's done with two switches or a potentiometer. I do not think it has a potentiometer (like expression pedals). Otherwise Korg would say that you can use any expression pedal on the sustain/damper input. We will see.

[Rob Sherratt]

So, is this half pedaling thing like having sustinoto and sustain (damper) on the same pedal?
Lee

I don't know how Korg have implemented it. I doubt half pedal is like sostenuto. I ordered the DS1H pedal for my Pa2x so I can try it out. I'll let you know afterwards.

[iaoranaemaeva]

I don't know how Korg have implemented it. I doubt half pedal is like sostenuto. I ordered the DS1H pedal for my Pa2x so I can try it out. I'll let you know afterwards.

Hi All,
Just an idea: with Pianoteq (piano emulator software), which implements "progressive pedal", I simply use an expression pedal to simulate the forte pedal of a real piano. Once accustomed to it, it's OK. But I fear this can't be applied to Pa2X, which doesn't implement CC learning, does it?

[Rob Sherratt]

I've been looking at the structure of Grand Piano RX sound in more detail to try to predict what will happen with "half pedal".

Two of the multisamples - called "Tailpiece_L" on OSC 9 and "Tailpiece_R" on OSC 10 cause the piano resonance sound when you press sustain/damper. My best guess is that on "half pedal", these two multisamples will be played at half their normal volume. Also I suspect that on "half pedal" the other two FX multisamples called "FX Pedal On_L" on OSC 12 and "FX Pedal On_R" on OSC 13 will probably not be triggered.

Anyway I'll post an update once the Korg DS-1H pedal that I ordered from Dolphin Music arrives.

[miden]

Sostenuto and half pedalling are 2 different things.
Half-pedalling is a technique learnt by pianists, using the sustain pedal.The sostenuto pedal does a specific task and is simply an on or off type pedal.
If you play notes on a piano and use the sostenuto pedal, those notes are sustained and any subsequent notes that are played are not.
In other words it only works on notes held at the time you use the pedal.