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No. of sounding voices doesn't go back with waveseq

 
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SKung
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:46 am    Post subject: No. of sounding voices doesn't go back with waveseq Reply with quote

My Kronos is 1st generation one with OS 3.1.3

When I play a note on a program that uses a wave sequence the number of sounding voices does not go down after playing a note.

Found this behavior when I checked the performance meters of a combi and found some voice stealing on the display.

Tracked this down to a program I made with drum multisamples that I converted to a wave sequence for round robin drums.

I press one key and the performance meter shows 4 sounds being played (equals my 4 samples I use for the wavesequence?), but after the sample finished the number of played sounds does not go back.
When I press the same key again it goes up to 8 sounds, then 12,16,20,24 until the max polyphony is reached and some voice stealing seems to be active which I don't notice when I play the key.

First I checked that I did not accidentally activated a loop in my samples, which I didn't.

Then I went to the 'Program P1:Basic/Vector' page and unchecked the 'hold' parameter. Without this option the number of sounding voices goes back to 0 after note release.

To be sure that it wasn't some FX setting or my program I started a new init program, picked the first wavesequence and tried it again with the same result.

Then I opened 'Global P4:Wave Sequence' and experimented with parameters for 'Repeat Times' without any result. But I did not really understand the meaning of the Start and End parameters for loops and steps. Was enough for me to hear a different drumsample when I press a key.

Did I miss something here?
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SeedyLee
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the hold parameter is the key here and it does exactly as it says on the tin. It holds the the played notes indefinitely. If you use this with a wave sequence, and the wave sequence is set to repeat, then the polyphony will increase every time you play a note. Most wave sequences are set to repeat indefinitely, so the combination of using Hold and a wave sequence is causing the behaviour you are seeing,

There's a few ways to solve this:

- Set the repeat times for the wave sequence from INF (the default) to 1
- Turn off "Run" for the wave sequence, and advance to the next sequence on note press
- Disable Hold for the program
- Set the program to "Single Trigger" mode (on the same page as the hold option). This will ensure that if the same note is played repeatedly, the previous note will be killed first.

Hope that helps.
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SKung
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Joined: 20 Aug 2011
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
Well, the hold parameter is the key here and it does exactly as it says on the tin. It holds the the played notes indefinitely.

If you use this with a wave sequence, and the wave sequence is set to repeat, then the polyphony will increase every time you play a note. Most wave sequences are set to repeat indefinitely, so the combination of using Hold and a wave sequence is causing the behaviour you are seeing,

There's a few ways to solve this:

- Set the repeat times for the wave sequence from INF (the default) to 1
- Turn off "Run" for the wave sequence, and advance to the next sequence on note press
- Disable Hold for the program
- Set the program to "Single Trigger" mode (on the same page as the hold option). This will ensure that if the same note is played repeatedly, the previous note will be killed first.

Hope that helps.


Thank you for your help and the quick answer. I reproduced the behaviour of the 'hold' parameter with various Wavesequence settings.

I took a factory wavesequence with loop set to INF, changed the number of loops to 1 and saved it to a user bank.

On a new init patch I added my wavesequence and activated the 'hold' parameter.

I pressed the key for a short amount of time and the wavesequence continued running and playing until the cycle was complete.

But after that the performance meter still showed 2 notes playing. This doesn't make sense to me unless playing the same key again would bring me somewhere into that active wavesequence again. But when I press the same key again the number of played notes increases.

Moreover I wasn't able to play new notes after the wavesequence cycle ended. I could press as many keys as I want but no sound is generated. Only the number of played sounds rises until the maximum polyphony.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

Same for the combination of the 'hold' parameter and an infinite number of loops in the Wavesequence. At some point the playback must stop since you don't play an endless song.

P.S.
- 'Run' is disabled and already set to note advance
- Cannot set 'single trigger' or disable 'hold' sind I have to be able to playback the same note multiple times (crashes and cymbal rides for example)
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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
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Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As noted, the HOLD is like pressing the sustain pedal down. You're just going to eat up your polyphony this way.

If you need some notes to ring out, perhaps you can separate those to a different wavesequence and just lengthen their gate time (set to half note).

Alternately, you could just toggle HOLD on and off as needed. Go to the Control Surface / Tone Adjust and assign a switch to HOLD on/off for the particular OSC/program.
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SeedyLee
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there something in particular you are trying to achieve, or are you just exploring out of curiosity and trying to understand how the Kronos works?

To understand the behaviour you're seeing, it's important to remember that the voice allocation system on the Kronos is quite complex. There are many parameters that can be modulated in real time, and this can lead to some ... unintuitive ... behaviour.

In a nutshell, regardless of whether you use a wave sequence or a regular sample, the hold parameter will cause voices to be held indefinitely for each note played. And the "Hold" feature is seldom what you want to use for this exact reason.

Hold means "don't kill any notes because I might want to do something with them later". It is *not* the same as permanently engaging the sustain switch.

Now the exact technical implementation details aren't published by Korg, so this is some supposition on my part, but the reason for this is that parameters can be modulated in real-time and the Kronos can't predict the future.

Take your example of the wave sequence. Even when it's not set to "Run" or to repeat indefintely, it still occupies a voice for each note held, even when it's not sounding. It may not be set to repeat, but at any point in time a controller or sysex message could be used to change the active step of the wave sequence. Or change the number of repeat steps. So even if those voices have finished generating sound for the time being, they might be called on again to generate sound if something changes.

Also, the voice allocation architecture works similarly across sound engines, and this behaviour applies for the EXi engines too. Each engine behaves slightly differently, but for consistency, turning hold on causes that voice to be allocated indefinitely regardless of whether it strictly needs to be or not.

Think of a voice not as something that strictly produces sound, but as a type of file or process structure that has to keep track of everything related to managing that note, including a record of which notes have been held. Once the voice is deallocated, that record is lost. As another example, I could turn "hold" on with the ms-20 engine, and set sustain to zero. After the attack and decay segments, the sound would fade out, and the voice will cease sounding. Of course, I could turn the sustain envelope up at any stage (even hours in the future), and the way the Kronos handles it mean that note would resume right where I left it.

All of this probably doesn't really help you, but as I said, "hold" is almost certainly *not* what most people want. Instead, there's a nifty, somewhat porrly documented feature that can help: MIDI CC #66 - Sostenuto

Quote:
On/Off switch – Like the Sustain controller (CC 64), However it only holds notes that were “On” when the pedal was pressed. People use it to “hold” chords” and play melodies over the held chord.


Assign MIDI CC #66 to one of the real-time control knobs, and press the key you want to hold. Whilst holding the key down, rotate the knob fully clockwise and release the key - it will continue sounding. The nice thing about this is you can then play notes over the top without them being held too - it only applies to notes that were held at the time sostenuto was engaged.

Of course, you can do the same thing with regular CC #64 too by assigning that to a knob. Or assign Hold to Tone Adjust control.

Finally, even though these non-sounding notes consume voices (perhaps needlessly), keep in mind that the voice stealing algorithm considers whether a note is producing sound, and whether it's likely to produce sound, when deciding what notes to steal. For that reason, your non-sounding wave sequence voices shouldn't interfere with the useable polyphony of your Kronos as they will be among the first to be reallocated.

Hope that helps!
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Current Equipment:
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Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
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SKung
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Joined: 20 Aug 2011
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think I got a clearer picture now after reading the manual multiple times and experimenting with my Kronos.

The manual says about the 'hold' option:

Quote:
Hold is like permanently pressing down on the sustain pedal.
In other words, notes continue to sound as if you were
holding down the key - even after you lift your fingers from
the keyboard.
Unless the Sustain Level is set to 0 in Amp EG 1 (and Amp
EG 2 in a Double Program), the sound will play for the entire
length of the sample(s).


Reading only the first sentence can lead to a misunderstanding. 'Hold' is 'like' the sustain pedal, but not 'the same' (imho the sentence should be: 'Hold is similar to permanently pressing down on the sustain pedal')

The 'hold' option is not endless. It can get endless when you have a looped multisample or a wavesequence with infinite loops.


You can reproduce what I found with the following steps:
- Open a HD-1 init patch
- Go to 'OSC/Pitch' -> 'OSC1 Basic'
- Assign a multisample for OSC1 that has no loop, could be a cymbal or a crash
- Go to 'Basic/Vector' -> 'Program Basic'
- Activate 'Hold'
- Go to 'Play' -> 'Perf Meters'
- 'Number of Sounding Voices' is at 0
- Press a key on the keyboard and release it before the sample playback ends
- 'Number of Sounding Voices' is at 1
- Wait until the sample playback is finished
- 'Number of Sounding Voices' is at 0

Now replace the multisample with a wavesequence that has a limited number of loops

Press a key again and wait until the sample playback is finished. The 'Number of Sounding Voices' does not go back to 0 after that.
And without 'key advance' I'm not even able to play another sound at all.

At this point I am not sure if this behaviour is correct, I will ask Korg support about this.

In the meantime I found a workaround:
I found a way to use a program without 'hold' being activated. The AMP EG has got a longer decay time than my sample length and no sustain. Now when I release a key the 'Number of Sounding Voices' goes back to 0 when the decay time is over.

Fortunately my samples (drums with GM mapping) are shorter in a lower keyboard range (kick, snare, hats) and the longer ones (crashes, cymbals) are in a higher range.
So I made a program with 2 identical oscillators and a split point. The first oscillator with the shorter samples has got a shorter decay time.

And thanks for your input and help
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The behaviour as it stands is quite intentional - have a read through my previous post to understand some of the reasons why. It's more complex than "the wave sequence has finished producing sound, therefore the voices should be released".

As I said, using the "hold" function is almost certainly not want you want to do to achieve the result you're looking for.
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Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW1600 Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200,

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
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SeedyLee
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The behaviour as it stands is quite intentional - have a read through my previous post to understand some of the reasons why. It's more complex than "the wave sequence has finished producing sound, therefore the voices should be released".

As I said, using the "hold" function is almost certainly not want you want to do to achieve the result you're looking for.
_________________
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW1600 Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200,

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
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Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Open an INIT program
Toggle the HOLD button on
Press and let go of a key

You'll see the number of voices remains at 1 (not 0).

Change the OSC from ROM to WaveSeq
The default is Orch Band Hit
Notice this holds at 2 voices per play

This is normal operation.
With HOLD activated, there is no note-off command.

Glad you found a workaround.
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