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[SOLVED] Kronos Dual-Manual CX3 with External Keyboard?
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:44 pm
by MamboKeys
I am trying a new setup for my live rig, and I'm running into an issue I have not been able to resolve. Here are the specifics:
I'm using a Kronos 2-73 with a Hammond XK-1c as an external controller in a sort of dual-manual configuration. I have set up a Combi with two separate CX-3 programs (one for upper manual, one for lower), each on two different MIDI channels.
The Kronos global channel is set to 1, and the program for the lower manual is on channel 1, so the Kronos' keyboard plays that sound.
The Hammond transmits on channel 2, and pushes channel 2 of the combi.
The expression pedal is connected to the Kronos.
The problem I'm running into is that when I move the expression pedal, only MIDI channel 1 responds. The "upper manual," played by the XK, does not respond to the expression pedal. If I connect the pedal to the XK, then the opposite happens.
I'm wondering if Karma might offer some solution to remap the pedal to be able to control both MIDI channels at once?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:51 am
by 19naia
Karma has Dynamic midi and foot pedal is one of the source options.
The issue i see is on the destination side of Dynamic midi where foot pedal CC# is not on the list i see in the parameter guide.
Foot Pedal is a global control setting and that means it will stick to the global channel. Even the CC# function for pedal has to be set in global and then it can be set up for AMS or Dynamic midi.
I don't have kronos with me to try but i cannot be sure a dynamic midi solution exsist but i would look at karma dynamic midi and set up pedal as source and then try out destinations for it and see if any luck. I think karma midi I/O is the other hurdle. Input channel versus output channel without interfering with channel 1 global setting.
Timbre/track midi filter also has a setting that disables or enables foot pedal per each timbre/track.
I wonder if there is more flexibility in Sequencer track, moving to sequencer mode where you may not have as much Gch limits over internal sounds. It is just channels 1-16 and internal sounds come through no matter what channel you are on. Worth a try even if you end up finding similar Global channel limits as are in combi.
Are you having the same issue with damper respose also?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:51 pm
by MamboKeys
I done figured it out! Here's how I configured my rig to get a dual-manual setup:
1. Plug your expression pedal into the Kronos.
2. Set the transmit channel of the external keyboard to 2.
3. In the Play tab of Combi mode:
3.1 Assign the desired CX3 program to channel 1 of the combi to act as the lower manual program. This program will be played by the Kronos' keyboard.
3.2 Assign a second CX3 program to channel 2 of the combi, This will be the upper manual program, and will be controlled by the external keyboard.
4. Still in Combi mode, go into the Karma tab. In the MIDI I/O section of the GE Setup/Key Zones tab:
4.1 Part A: Set Input Ch to Gch, Output Ch to 01G, and tick the Timbre Thru checkbox so it's active.
4.2 Part B: Set Input Ch to Gch, Output Ch to 02, and untick the Timbre Thru checkbox so it's not active.
4.3 In the GE Setup section Part A, uncheck Run, uncheck Thru In Z, check Thru Out Z, and set the zone top and bottom both to C-1.
4.4 In the GE Setup section Part B, uncheck Run, uncheck Thru In Z, uncheck Thru Out Z, and set the zone top and bottom both to C-1.
5. Make sure Karma is turned ON at the combi level. I forgot to do this and spent way too long racking my brain trying to figure out why it didn't work. (facepalm)
6. Write the combi to your desired location.
7. Go into the Controllers/Scales tab in Global mode.
7.1 Assign the foot pedal to Expression (CC#11).
7.2 Write the Global setting.
You're done!
You can also use this method to use an external keyboard to control timbres in any combi. With the Karma settings specified above, you can use the Kronos keyboard to control anything receiving on the global channel, and the external keyboard will control anything receiving on channel 2. Using these Karma settings will also let the Kronos' damper pedal control both channel 1 and channel 2.
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:34 pm
by 19naia
Thanks much and good to know how it actually comes together to work.
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:34 pm
by SanderXpander
How do you get drawbar control of the second manual?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:27 pm
by MamboKeys
SanderXpander wrote:How do you get drawbar control of the second manual?
That's actually a good question. I hadn't given it much thought because I have a series of Combis set up for the different organ songs in our set, so it isn't an issue for me.
That said, I'm using a Hammond XK-1c as the external controller, so I will try mapping the CC#s of the XK's drawbars to control the second manual and see how it works. If it does, then as long as you can get the external keyboard to transmit the right CC#s, you should be in business.
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:53 am
by SanderXpander
They don't respond to CC#s, that's why I was asking, hoping you had resolved this. They can't be controlled on Kronos simultaneously and externally they go by SysEx.
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:12 am
by Perilous
Right, the drawbars don't respond to CC.
I have documented all the Sysex codes for all the effects and drawbars of the CX-3 engine. It's a cinch to do it on the Roland A-800 Pro, but I am not sure if the XK-1c can be made to transmit the Sysex codes needed to control the Kronos.
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:52 am
by MamboKeys
I haven't looked at what data the drawbars transmit. I need to hook it up to MIDI-Ox to get a look at what's happening.
At any rate, it's not really an issue for me, but I can certainly appreciate why it would be important to some folks. Perhaps something like MIDI-Ox or the Event Processor from MIDI Solutions could bridge the gap.
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:44 am
by Mersip
While this post was focussed on a dual-manual organ, you also solved a problem that has been brought up elsewhere in this Forum over the last few years. Namely:
Can you get the damper pedal to work with both the Kronos and the external keyboard? YES
A previous response allowed me to do this by having the Timbre Thru checkbox ticked (active) for the external keyboard (MIDI I/O Part B in your example above). The trouble with this is the sounds triggered by the external keyboard are also triggered by the Kronos (which defeats the purpose of having the second keyboard!).
Your solution works brilliantly. Thank you for sharing.
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:40 am
by MamboKeys
Mersip wrote:
Your solution works brilliantly. Thank you for sharing.
I'm happy it helped you! Cheers!
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:37 am
by StephenKay
Kudos!
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:19 pm
by peto24
Hello, I'm trying to use Hammond Sk1 with KORG KRONOS:
- use Hammond SK1 for Upper part
- use Kronos to play Lower manual or Extra voices from Hammond SK1 (using midi channel 2 for LOWER)
- use sustain pedal (damper) connected to Hammond only for upper part – only for notes playing directly on Hammond
- use sustain pedal connected to Kronos only for lower part playing on KRONOS
In other words I want to have both sustain pedals independent holding only notes from keyboard where are directly connected.
After all possible changes regarding Hammond SK1 MIDI settings, sustain pedal connected to Hammond SK1 still controls both parts, also lower playing on KRONOS.
I’m not MIDI professional so I don’t know if this is actually possible but I guess maybe there is a way:
- disable sustain pedal on Hammond SK1 for lower\extra voices
- use KRONOS KARMA settings to set KRONOS sustain pedal for Hammond lower part.
I have also tried to copy dual-manual setup posted by MamboKeys and disable sustain on Hammond for lower...but sound playing on Kronos is still not sustained.
Please do you have any tip regarding this challenge?
thanks
Peter
Recommend this become a “sticky”
Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:04 pm
by Fatherofone
MamboKeys wrote:I done figured it out! Here's how I configured my rig to get a dual-manual setup:
1. Plug your expression pedal into the Kronos.
2. Set the transmit channel of the external keyboard to 2.
3. In the Play tab of Combi mode:
3.1 Assign the desired CX3 program to channel 1 of the combi to act as the lower manual program. This program will be played by the Kronos' keyboard.
3.2 Assign a second CX3 program to channel 2 of the combi, This will be the upper manual program, and will be controlled by the external keyboard.
4. Still in Combi mode, go into the Karma tab. In the MIDI I/O section of the GE Setup/Key Zones tab:
4.1 Part A: Set Input Ch to Gch, Output Ch to 01G, and tick the Timbre Thru checkbox so it's active.
4.2 Part B: Set Input Ch to Gch, Output Ch to 02, and untick the Timbre Thru checkbox so it's not active.
4.3 In the GE Setup section Part A, uncheck Run, uncheck Thru In Z, check Thru Out Z, and set the zone top and bottom both to C-1.
4.4 In the GE Setup section Part B, uncheck Run, uncheck Thru In Z, uncheck Thru Out Z, and set the zone top and bottom both to C-1.
5. Make sure Karma is turned ON at the combi level. I forgot to do this and spent way too long racking my brain trying to figure out why it didn't work. (facepalm)
6. Write the combi to your desired location.
7. Go into the Controllers/Scales tab in Global mode.
7.1 Assign the foot pedal to Expression (CC#11).
7.2 Write the Global setting.
You're done!
You can also use this method to use an external keyboard to control timbres in any combi. With the Karma settings specified above, you can use the Kronos keyboard to control anything receiving on the global channel, and the external keyboard will control anything receiving on channel 2. Using these Karma settings will also let the Kronos' damper pedal control both channel 1 and channel 2.
Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:46 am
by CliveJ
peto24 wrote:Hello, I'm trying to use Hammond Sk1 with KORG KRONOS:
- use Hammond SK1 for Upper part
- use Kronos to play Lower manual or Extra voices from Hammond SK1 (using midi channel 2 for LOWER)
- use sustain pedal (damper) connected to Hammond only for upper part – only for notes playing directly on Hammond
- use sustain pedal connected to Kronos only for lower part playing on KRONOS
In other words I want to have both sustain pedals independent holding only notes from keyboard where are directly connected.
After all possible changes regarding Hammond SK1 MIDI settings, sustain pedal connected to Hammond SK1 still controls both parts, also lower playing on KRONOS.
I’m not MIDI professional so I don’t know if this is actually possible but I guess maybe there is a way:
- disable sustain pedal on Hammond SK1 for lower\extra voices
- use KRONOS KARMA settings to set KRONOS sustain pedal for Hammond lower part.
I have also tried to copy dual-manual setup posted by MamboKeys and disable sustain on Hammond for lower...but sound playing on Kronos is still not sustained.
Please do you have any tip regarding this challenge?
thanks
Peter
That’s exactly the way I would want to connect. This way you have max flexibility to sustain one manual while soloing on the other and freeing up a hand for other duties.
If you use 2 of those “rubbery” square pedals you could join them together (gaffa tape?) and tread on either side or the middle if you want to sustain both.
I’ll have a play with the MIDI problem….