Free Energy.

[Sharp]

Hi xmlguy.

Did you see my followup message about inductor saturation? That seems to be a possibility to describe an 87.5% drop in emf reaction.

Sorry I missed that.

Quite simply it's not possible to supply continuous DC to the orbo while it's rotating.

If you watch the official demo again at the 1 minute mark Sean explains very clearly how the 4 coils are wired to the DC supply. The encoder disc that will be rotating works with a light sensor which in turn acts as the switch which powers the coils and switched them off and on.

Regards
Sharp.

[xmlguy]

Hi Sharp,

Saturation doesn't require continuous DC. Saturation can occur with pulsed DC or AC. All you need is enough power to saturate the inductor, which can occur in a very short period, much less time than required for the motion of the magnet across the inductor, particularly for small torroidal inductors with a strong battery and a pulsed DC square wave. I don't see any current limiting to the inductors, so saturation is the normal and expected result when nothing is preventing it.

I believe the rise and fall of the DC pulse would provide more than enough energy to pull and push the permanent magnets to run the motor, while keeping the inductor fully saturated most of the time. All you would need is a pulse width that causes it to energize when the magnet approaches the inductor and deenergize as the magnet passes the center point of the inductor. That is very easy to do with a mechanical commutator. Pulsed DC is same as AC to an inductor. A DC pulse from 0V to 10V is exactly the same as an AC wave from -5V to +5V.

I would expect that the 10000mAh battery shown in the video could run a motor like this for a very long time. The motor has very little load. Think how long you can run a mechanical clock on a single battery. That's a very strong battery.

[Sharp]

Hi xmlguy.
You could be right. I found a very cool thread that I'm still reading through myself slowly so I can understand everything that's said.

Have a read of all this. It covers everything from the lead-up to the even to now.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.0

They seem like a very smart bunch of people.

Regards
Sharp.

[xmlguy]

Hi Sharp,

One thing I know for sure is that I could build a much better motor that would fool a lot more people than this device.

I would take a lot more care to make it look a lot more impressive. First of all, you need spinning lights and to make it glow. Things that glow always impress people. That's why Steorn makes their building glow. So one big mistake they made was making their building glow, but not the Orbo. Spinning lights are even better.

These days you can make things glow for a long time with LEDs with very little power, and hiding/obfuscating the source of the power could be lots of fun.

Next, it's essential to have blinking lights, because that tells people that it must be very complicated, sophisticated, and magical. Yes, blinking is essential.

Finally, it must make some sound that says "this is a really impressive device to sound this way." Whirring, buzzing, humming, bleeping, chirping, are all impressive sounds.

As far a power goes, showing a big powerful 10000mAH battery is really stupid, because that's never going to fool any skeptics, since we skeptics know how much power it contains. No, that will not do. I will use a supercapacitor. In fact, I will put a big label on it saying "SUPERCAPACITOR" just so it will be very clear that it's not a battery.

I will use batteries, of course, but they will be well hidden in the structure. I will also use cleverly hidden solar cells inside translucent material - so that you can't see the cell, but it can still capture the light need to add energy into the system. Then I will also put a hidden inductive loop into the base of the device for adding continuous energy to it. There will be matching inductive loops cleverly hidden in the floor, with ceramic tile flooring, since nobody will even think of hidden loops, and if they do, they aren't going to be allowed to break up the tile to discover them. The inductive loops in the floor will only be fired off with a wireless signal triggered by my device. I will also put radiant heating coils in the floor as a decoy if someone thinks of using a metal detector on the floor.

Yes, yes, yes, I'm sure I could make a device that could fool nearly everyone. The key is to make accurate, detailed investigation as hard as possible into the real sources of power, while providing as much data on the decoy device as possible.

Did I mention that I have lots of training and experience in electronics? I also trained as a magician and stage illusionist as a youth. There is an art to deception. In that regard, Steorn are amateurs.

[Sharp]

I don't doubt it if your only goal is to create a fake motor which does nothing unusual at all.

Have you been following that thread I linked to above ?

Here's a quote...

Congratulations old friend! It looks like you are the first independant person to replicate and confirm the validity of Steorn's pulse motor drive system/technology

See for yourself.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topi ... #msg217220

Video proof too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT6KdUECEqE

Regards
Sharp.

[Sharp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3_XPxbbOig

[xmlguy]

Sharp, I never suggested that Steorn has a fake motor. On the contrary, I think it's obvious that it's a working motor. I'm looking for any credible evidence as to the claims made by Steorn that it's an overunity device. Yes, I read the thread. Prior to reading that thread, I suggested that the coil was likely being saturated, explaining the low back EMF readings, which was pointed out in that thread, I find.

The new video of confirmation that the motor "works" is quite irrelevant, beside that this new tester is quite confused and clearly doesn't understand why his hall effect sensor didn't pick up magnetism from the toroid. If he knew what he was doing, he would put a clamp-on DC ammeter around the loop, which contains a split hall effect sensor, revealing why there indeed is a magnetic field occuring in the toroid and current flowing. Apparently he doesn't know how the hall-effect works, or he wouldn't make such an obvious mistake. This only proves that it's possible for someone to have enough knowledge to build a simple DC motor using a toroid inductor and a hall-effect sensor to trigger it, without actually understanding how it works. His surprise at being able to charge a capacitor using a DC pulse is equally ignorant. I am only surprised at his level of incompetence in basic electronics knowledge, while spending so much effort "discovering" the obvious while simultaneously missing the whole point.

This guy's statement that "more energy is being produced somewhere than I understand right now...where all this energy is coming from beats the hell out of me right now..." was absolutely hilarious. He doesn't even realize that he built a charging circuit. I'll give him a clue: maybe that programmable power supply attached to the circuit has something to do with it, Sherlock.

The point can be distilled down to one equation:

Orbo Power Consumption or Generation = Watts In - Watts Out.

If people aren't asking the right question, how can they possibly get a relevant result? Is that really so hard to see?

Measuring low back EMF doesn't answer that question. Being able to build a pulse DC motor with a toroid doesn't answer that question.

At this point nobody seems to be able show that it's even an efficient motor that can do any work with a load.

[Sharp]

Sharp, I never suggested that Steorn has a fake motor.

Sorry, I meant to say fake free energy device. For you to create a fake in order to scam people you would have to build smoothing that functions in a way never seen before that also demonstrates totally unexpected results including no back emf.

The claims Stoern have made the video have been verified by others. Ok, some of which you don't agree with but with each person creating a better working model the information is there and it's the same as Steorns.

And here's the best one yet just released today.

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... l=fr&tl=en

This guy is much further along than anyone else back engineering Steorns orbo so god only knows what the next few days will mean for him. So have a look and see what you think.

If he continues on this path I can see him pushing past what steorn have demonstrated. There is certainly something to all this.

Regards
James

[xmlguy]

Sharp, I never suggested that Steorn has a fake motor.

Sorry, I meant to say fake free energy device. For you to create a fake in order to scam people you would have to build smoothing that functions in a way never seen before that also demonstrates totally unexpected results including no back emf.

The claims Stoern have made the video have been verified by others. Ok, some of which you don't agree with but with each person creating a better working model the information is there and it's the same as Steorns.

And here's the best one yet just released today.

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... l=fr&tl=en

This guy is much further along than anyone else back engineering Steorns orbo so god only knows what the next few days will mean for him. So have a look and see what you think.

If he continues on this path I can see him pushing past what steorn have demonstrated. There is certainly something to all this.

Look closely at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xungPOZ ... r_embedded

See the reading in the top left corner. It starts at +000.2. Then after spinning it reads +002.0 and falls to +001.1. Note the missing 0 in front of the decimal place. Are all these guys friggen morons? He's got evidence of back EMF and doesn't even see it, then says there's no EMF.

Yes, there is something to this. Free energy websites apparently attract a lot of hobbiests who like to spend a lot of time building devices that they don't understand and misinterpret the results. Fortunately, there is one member there who seems to know what he's talking about, with a userid of MileHigh. Everything he is saying hits the mark. I would think it was me writing in an alternate identity, but alas, it isn't. It's merely someone else who knows what he's talking about.

Sharp (or James, I don't know which you prefer, so no insult intended if I use the wrong one), there could be a million confirmations that Steorn has a working motor with low back EMF and still be no further towards providing one credible test that shows overunity gain. All we will gain are a million motors that apparently suck, because nobody has yet to show the efficiency and power of these motors so far as I've seen. Is it too much to ask these motor builders to provide the basic performance specs, just like every manufacturer does for their motors. All that has been demonstrated are a bunch of worthless motors with extremely low power that can't even move themselves from dead stop with unknown efficiency. Let's see one test of these motors that outperforms a good motor with high power and efficiency.

Unlike the vast majority of my neighbors, who use gasoline grass mowers, I have been using electric mowers for more than 30 years, originally corded models but cordless ones for the last 10 years. I don't see any of these back emf reduced motors getting me any further towards cutting grass with better performance than what I already own. In this regard, I put my money where my mouth is. I would get stronger cutting power with lighter weight at a lower purchase price with a gasoline model. Instead I have chosen to accept worse performance for other benefits, such as no need to consume, store, and refill a highly flammable liquid, reduced air emissions, and lower maintenence hassle and cost.

I would love to be able to purchase a pure electric vehicle, not a hybrid, if one was offered at a price that I considered a value vs. a similar gasoline model. I am willing to accept a drastically reduced round-trip range.

[Sharp]

There are 3 stages are to this demonstration.

1: A reversal of the polarity of the coils does not change the direction of rotation
2:When manual brake rotor, the supply current toroidal coils remains constant
3: There are no cons electromotive force (Back EMF) induced in the stator coils when the rotor is turned manually.

So do you agree stages 1 and 2 were demonstrated then and verified ?

See the reading in the top left corner. It starts at +000.2. Then after spinning it reads +002.0 and falls to +001.1. Note the missing 0 in front of the decimal place. Are all these guys friggen morons? He's got evidence of back EMF and doesn't even see it, then says there's no EMF.

Which is stage 3.

I was watching the trace since he has it in manual mode and zoomed to the last. You could probably fart in the room and generate enough static electricity between the two cheeks of your arse and produce the same result.

Ok, it poses a question though.

Yes, there is something to this. Free energy websites apparently attract a lot of hobbiests who like to spend a lot of time building devices that they don't understand and misinterpret the results.

It's very early days yet. Remember that steorn hasn't released any information yet. Everything these guys have accomplished so far as been from just seeing images of an orbo. That's pretty astonishing no matter what way you look at it.

Some of these guys are working full time in the field and have over 30 years experience too, so I don't think anyone is miss reading the results. There's just a lot new happening people haven't seen before which still needs to be answered.

Sharp (or James, I don't know which you prefer, so no insult intended if I use the wrong one),

Don't mind either way.

there could be a million confirmations that Steorn has a working motor with low back EMF and still be no further towards providing one credible test that shows overunity gain. All we will gain are a million motors that apparently suck, because nobody has yet to show the efficiency and power of these motors so far as I've seen.

Again it's still early days yet, but even if we go no further Steorn's deign will greatly influence future designs for commercial motors.

Regards
Sharp.

[xmlguy]

Hi Sharp:

"1: A reversal of the polarity of the coils does not change the direction of rotation
2:When manual brake rotor, the supply current toroidal coils remains constant"

No, 1 and 2 were not demonstrated or verified. But I think they're probably true, regardless, based merely on the stated design of the motor. I think it would be easy enough for the backyard hobbiests to demonstrate and verify 1 and 2, but so far they haven't even attempted to demonstrate these traits, so far as I've seen. They have been more interested in showing the inductor charge/discharge pulse. To demonstrate 1, they would have to reverse the polarity of the coils, which they haven't tried, nor have they pushed the rotor in the opposite direction. Did I miss something? To demonstrate 2 they would need to measure the current to the toroids while manually braking the rotor, if that's what you mean. They haven't done that either. Again, this all should be easy enough to do, and I expect them to probably produce the results you expect. But I'm not going to give them credit for doing something that they haven't, in fact, actually tried, shown or verified.

"I was watching the trace since he has it in manual mode and zoomed to the last. You could probably fart in the room and generate enough static electricity between the two cheeks of your arse and produce the same result. "

Static electricity won't produce that result. You could have lightning hit your arse and it would not cause that result. The result was a small, measurable current that was consistent and not present before he started the motor rotating.

There is a huge difference between NO/NONE, and LITTLE/SOME. If the hypothesis predicts NONE, and you get LITTLE or SOME, then the hypothesis is FALSE. In this specific case, +002.0 is TEN TIMES HIGHER than +000.2. That does NOT appear to be an insignificant difference that is due to statistical/measurement error. A small difference in result can be massively significant to the meaning. It also followed the expected behavior of back EMF by increasing and decreasing with RPM. Static electricity doesn't behave like that. You cannot merely dismiss results just because they don't fit what you predict. I am using the results that I indirectly observed on the scope in the video. I'm not making up conclusions to fit the story. I'm just pointing out, why their tests and their conclusions are (1) wrong or (2) irrelevant. I would much prefer to see results that are relevant and useful.

[Sharp]

Hi xmlguy.
Sorry mate, I've gotten totally side tracked here with other things.

I'll reply to your post later, but just wanted to post this now to let people know that the next live demo is on Friday 8th January 2010 at 7pm GMT. The subject is Steorn's Orbo Electromagnetic Interaction.

It can be watched live from their webiste. Just got the email from them last night.

Regards
Sharp.

[xmlguy]

I have a working hypothesis: Steorn is committing a fraud on people who send money for the Orb plans.

I predict that an overunity electrical motor/generator device will not be shown producing more electrical power than it consumes with any credible level of certainty on Friday 8th January 2010 between 7pm GMT and 11:59pm GMT

We'll see if my hypothesis stands or is falsified. I would like to see my hypothesis falsified, because it's sad when people lose money due to fraud.

[laughing_bear]

I have a working hypothesis: Steorn is committing a fraud on people who send money for the Orb plans.

Precisely! They more than likely are using a legal loophole here as well.

[Sharp]

The only thing I'm expecting to see in their next demo other is exactly what they said they would demonstrate. The Electromagnetic Interaction.

As for it being a scam, you can't buy a SKDB license until next month when all the demonstrations are over and Steorn have finished proving that they have a free energy device. If they don't provide enough proof by the end of this month, people simply won't buy a license.

It doesn't add up guys, they also have a profitable business to run.

Regards
Sharp.