http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855Released: August 30, 2004
Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals
Bush or Kerry
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laughing_bear
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McHale
I forget where I read this but it will always hold true:
Freedom isn't free. Peace isn't pretty.
The war on terrorism is the most important war in modern times. It's a war against muslim fundamentalist nuts who are hell bent on killing those who aren't like them in a cowardly way.
Don't make it sound like they are acting this way because big bad America is bombing their good people. We didn't start this. We got attacked time and time again - several times at thw WTC, the USS Cole, several others that aren't worth to list. I know of about 20 off the top of my head. Bush is the first leader to attack this head on instead of the typical, "This is been going on for thousands of years, it can't be changed." attitude. Once they killed Americans *IN* America, we have no choice but to fight or run. Spain ran. France ran. Russia has now suddenly changed their tune.
They come to the US and take advantage of our schools to use the knowledge against us. Smart on their part. Foolish on our part to allow foreigners to study here? You be the judge. I'm against it for obvious reasons.
Sorry to those I will offend with this next statement, but I'm not the only one who feels this way. Before 9/11, I never gave the muslim religion a single thought. There's tons of religions out there - some legit, some wacko. Each to their own. But now, after reading the Quran (sp?) I now know where their hatred comes from. It tells them to kill all infadels (non muslims). It's not a peaceful religion and Muhamad was a nut. I stare at every male and female muslim until their out of my site now out of fear. Wish it wasn't that way but it is. Who knows if they are going to blow up the bus or train I'm on? It's just a matter of time before they start doing that crap here. I feel sorry for those in Israel who go through this every day and have done so since birth. You're never at peace.
Clinton did nothing. Bush did. Kerry said he wants to fight a defensive only, "sensitive" war. If you're from any country besides America, you may have cheered when America was attacked. Many of our "allies" did. France is famous for it. *THAT'S* why you want Kerry to win. It will happen continuously if God forbid, he were elected. Under Bush, they are running like the cowards they are and have been unsuccessful at a repeat attack so far.
Bush will win. It won't be close. And if Usama isn't dead yet (haven't seen or heard from him in a LONG LONG time), he will be.
I leave this thread with this poem:
Berlin, 1939:
First they came for the Jews,
But I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists,
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade-unionists,
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a trade-unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Catholic.
Then they came for me,
And there was no one left to speak out for me.
- Pastor Niemller (Anti-Nazi Resistance Movement)
Freedom isn't free. Peace isn't pretty.
The war on terrorism is the most important war in modern times. It's a war against muslim fundamentalist nuts who are hell bent on killing those who aren't like them in a cowardly way.
Don't make it sound like they are acting this way because big bad America is bombing their good people. We didn't start this. We got attacked time and time again - several times at thw WTC, the USS Cole, several others that aren't worth to list. I know of about 20 off the top of my head. Bush is the first leader to attack this head on instead of the typical, "This is been going on for thousands of years, it can't be changed." attitude. Once they killed Americans *IN* America, we have no choice but to fight or run. Spain ran. France ran. Russia has now suddenly changed their tune.
They come to the US and take advantage of our schools to use the knowledge against us. Smart on their part. Foolish on our part to allow foreigners to study here? You be the judge. I'm against it for obvious reasons.
Sorry to those I will offend with this next statement, but I'm not the only one who feels this way. Before 9/11, I never gave the muslim religion a single thought. There's tons of religions out there - some legit, some wacko. Each to their own. But now, after reading the Quran (sp?) I now know where their hatred comes from. It tells them to kill all infadels (non muslims). It's not a peaceful religion and Muhamad was a nut. I stare at every male and female muslim until their out of my site now out of fear. Wish it wasn't that way but it is. Who knows if they are going to blow up the bus or train I'm on? It's just a matter of time before they start doing that crap here. I feel sorry for those in Israel who go through this every day and have done so since birth. You're never at peace.
Clinton did nothing. Bush did. Kerry said he wants to fight a defensive only, "sensitive" war. If you're from any country besides America, you may have cheered when America was attacked. Many of our "allies" did. France is famous for it. *THAT'S* why you want Kerry to win. It will happen continuously if God forbid, he were elected. Under Bush, they are running like the cowards they are and have been unsuccessful at a repeat attack so far.
Bush will win. It won't be close. And if Usama isn't dead yet (haven't seen or heard from him in a LONG LONG time), he will be.
I leave this thread with this poem:
Berlin, 1939:
First they came for the Jews,
But I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists,
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade-unionists,
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a trade-unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Catholic.
Then they came for me,
And there was no one left to speak out for me.
- Pastor Niemller (Anti-Nazi Resistance Movement)
Here's a post that was circulating on some forum Boards *BEFORE* the war begun (about 18 months or so ago) - and the writer gave permission to distribute. Thus:
Here's some information worth knowing that you'll never get on CNN or FOX news. Do you know enough to justify going to war with Iraq? Take the War on Iraq IQ Test:
Q: What percentage of the world's population does the U.S. have? A: 6%
Q: What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have? A: 50%
Q: Which country has the largest oil reserves? A: Saudi Arabia
Q: Which country has the second largest oil reserves? A: Iraq
Q: How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide? A: $900+ billion
Q: How much of this is spent by the U.S.? A: 50%
Q: What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials of life to everyone in the world, according the the UN? A: 10% (that's about $40 billion, the amount of funding initially requested to fund our retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).
Q: How many people have died in wars since World War II? A: 86 million
Q: How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons? A: Since the early 1980's.
Q: Did Iraq develop these chemical and biological weapons on their own? A: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government, along with Britain and private corporations.
Q: Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare against Iran? A: No
Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish town of Halabja in 1988? A: 5,000
Q: How many western countries condemned this action at the time? A: 0
Q: How many gallons of Agent Orange did America use in Vietnam? A: 17 million.
Q: Are there any proven links between Iraq and September 11th terrorist attack? A: No
Q: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the Gulf War? A: 35,000
Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western forces during the Gulf War ? A: about 100
Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S. tanks with ploughs mounted on the front? A: 6,000
Q: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War? A: 40 tons
Q: What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in Iraq between 1991 and 1994? A: 700%
Q: How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had destroyed in 1991? A: 80%
Q: Is there any proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for anything other than deterrence and self defense? A: No
Q: Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years ago? A: No
Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3? A: 10,000
Q: What percentage of these will be children? A: Over 50%
Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq? A: 11 years
Q: Was the U.S and the UK at war with Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999? A: No
Q: How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999? A: 20 million
Q: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports? A: 12 years
Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)? A: 38
Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per 1,000 births)? A: 131 (that's an increase of 345%)
Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions? A: 1.5 million
Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions since 1997? A: 750,000
Q: Did Saddam order the inspectors out of Iraq? A: No
Q: How many inspections were there in November and December 1998? A: 300
Q: How many of these inspections had problems? A: 5
Q: Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Ba'ath Party HQ? A: Yes
Q: Who said that by December 1998, Iraq had in fact, been disarmed to a level unprecedented in modern history. A: Scott Ritter, UNSCOM chief.
Q: In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim to have discovered and dismantled? A: 90%
Q: Is Iraq willing to allow the weapons inspectors back in? A: Yes
Q: How many UN resolutions did Israel violate by 1992? A: Over 65
Q: How many UN resolutions on Israel did America veto between 1972 and 1990? A: 30+
Q: How much does the U.S. fund Israel a year? A: $5 billion
Q: How many countries are known to have nuclear weapons? A: 8
Q: How many nuclear warheads does Iraq have? A: 0
Q: How many nuclear warheads does US have? A: over 10,000
Q: Which is the only country to use nuclear weapons? A: the US
Q: How many nuclear warheads does Israel have? A: Over 400
Q: Has Israel ever allowed UN weapons inspections? A: No
Q: What percentage of the Palestinian territories are controlled by Israeli settlements? A: 42%
Q: Is Israel illegally occupying Palestinian land? A: Yes
Q: Which country do you think poses the greatest threat to global peace: Iraq or the U.S.? A: ?
Q: Who said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter"? A: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr
Makes you think a bit, doesn't it?
Well, In my opinion, whats wrong with the war in IRAQ, is that is SO Blatantly Wrong, that only:
1. Someone Stupid will say its right, Justified
2. refer to 1
The Fact that what they went to war for in the first place, that being to find WMD failed, makes them bring up other excuses like "Well, we got rid of a tyrant at least"
Bad as Sadam was, there wern't 100's of peoples getting blown up every week, and if you did what you were told, you were ok. Not freedom perhaps, but it was the way IRAQ was, and even now sadam has gone, its no better, much worse actually. Don't forget, there have been tens of thousands of IRAQIS slautered in this unjust war. Totally wrong - blatantly wrong
Anthony
Here's some information worth knowing that you'll never get on CNN or FOX news. Do you know enough to justify going to war with Iraq? Take the War on Iraq IQ Test:
Q: What percentage of the world's population does the U.S. have? A: 6%
Q: What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have? A: 50%
Q: Which country has the largest oil reserves? A: Saudi Arabia
Q: Which country has the second largest oil reserves? A: Iraq
Q: How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide? A: $900+ billion
Q: How much of this is spent by the U.S.? A: 50%
Q: What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials of life to everyone in the world, according the the UN? A: 10% (that's about $40 billion, the amount of funding initially requested to fund our retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).
Q: How many people have died in wars since World War II? A: 86 million
Q: How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons? A: Since the early 1980's.
Q: Did Iraq develop these chemical and biological weapons on their own? A: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government, along with Britain and private corporations.
Q: Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare against Iran? A: No
Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish town of Halabja in 1988? A: 5,000
Q: How many western countries condemned this action at the time? A: 0
Q: How many gallons of Agent Orange did America use in Vietnam? A: 17 million.
Q: Are there any proven links between Iraq and September 11th terrorist attack? A: No
Q: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the Gulf War? A: 35,000
Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western forces during the Gulf War ? A: about 100
Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S. tanks with ploughs mounted on the front? A: 6,000
Q: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War? A: 40 tons
Q: What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in Iraq between 1991 and 1994? A: 700%
Q: How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had destroyed in 1991? A: 80%
Q: Is there any proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for anything other than deterrence and self defense? A: No
Q: Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years ago? A: No
Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3? A: 10,000
Q: What percentage of these will be children? A: Over 50%
Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq? A: 11 years
Q: Was the U.S and the UK at war with Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999? A: No
Q: How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999? A: 20 million
Q: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports? A: 12 years
Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)? A: 38
Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per 1,000 births)? A: 131 (that's an increase of 345%)
Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions? A: 1.5 million
Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions since 1997? A: 750,000
Q: Did Saddam order the inspectors out of Iraq? A: No
Q: How many inspections were there in November and December 1998? A: 300
Q: How many of these inspections had problems? A: 5
Q: Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Ba'ath Party HQ? A: Yes
Q: Who said that by December 1998, Iraq had in fact, been disarmed to a level unprecedented in modern history. A: Scott Ritter, UNSCOM chief.
Q: In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim to have discovered and dismantled? A: 90%
Q: Is Iraq willing to allow the weapons inspectors back in? A: Yes
Q: How many UN resolutions did Israel violate by 1992? A: Over 65
Q: How many UN resolutions on Israel did America veto between 1972 and 1990? A: 30+
Q: How much does the U.S. fund Israel a year? A: $5 billion
Q: How many countries are known to have nuclear weapons? A: 8
Q: How many nuclear warheads does Iraq have? A: 0
Q: How many nuclear warheads does US have? A: over 10,000
Q: Which is the only country to use nuclear weapons? A: the US
Q: How many nuclear warheads does Israel have? A: Over 400
Q: Has Israel ever allowed UN weapons inspections? A: No
Q: What percentage of the Palestinian territories are controlled by Israeli settlements? A: 42%
Q: Is Israel illegally occupying Palestinian land? A: Yes
Q: Which country do you think poses the greatest threat to global peace: Iraq or the U.S.? A: ?
Q: Who said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter"? A: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr
Makes you think a bit, doesn't it?
Well, In my opinion, whats wrong with the war in IRAQ, is that is SO Blatantly Wrong, that only:
1. Someone Stupid will say its right, Justified
2. refer to 1
The Fact that what they went to war for in the first place, that being to find WMD failed, makes them bring up other excuses like "Well, we got rid of a tyrant at least"
Bad as Sadam was, there wern't 100's of peoples getting blown up every week, and if you did what you were told, you were ok. Not freedom perhaps, but it was the way IRAQ was, and even now sadam has gone, its no better, much worse actually. Don't forget, there have been tens of thousands of IRAQIS slautered in this unjust war. Totally wrong - blatantly wrong
Anthony
Last edited by AnthonyB on Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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londonlad
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McHale you are deluded, I'm guessing a few things here:
One you never read the Koran in your life, you can't even spell it.
Two, you have never left the US shores.
Three, you get your news from either ABC, NBC, or CNN. Take it from me, get your news from the worlds press if you want the true, unbiased, filtered angles.
Does it not bother you that Bush is stupid? Is this basic fact not a problem to you?
One you never read the Koran in your life, you can't even spell it.
Two, you have never left the US shores.
Three, you get your news from either ABC, NBC, or CNN. Take it from me, get your news from the worlds press if you want the true, unbiased, filtered angles.
Does it not bother you that Bush is stupid? Is this basic fact not a problem to you?
Man, that last post (mchale) made me realize one thing.
What exactly was it in retrospect that the bush adminitration has brought us?
Fear, Intolerance, Hatred, and Death.
That rant sounds like the kind of crap that the kkk is spewing.
"Blame everything on the muslims..."
"Immagrants are bad..."
No wonder they hate us.
If you want another 4 years under constant war with every non-white country in the world, then go vote for bush.
I say bush has to go.
People say kerry will do nothing, maybe that is what the world needs.
Finish your business and get back to DOMESTIC affairs which have been completely neglected for the last four years.
The "war on terror" is a farce. Why? Because we still have a "War on Drugs", and its easier than ever for me to get pot.
You cannot wage war against an abstract concept and ever hope to win.
What exactly was it in retrospect that the bush adminitration has brought us?
Fear, Intolerance, Hatred, and Death.
That rant sounds like the kind of crap that the kkk is spewing.
"Blame everything on the muslims..."
"Immagrants are bad..."
No wonder they hate us.
If you want another 4 years under constant war with every non-white country in the world, then go vote for bush.
I say bush has to go.
People say kerry will do nothing, maybe that is what the world needs.
Finish your business and get back to DOMESTIC affairs which have been completely neglected for the last four years.
The "war on terror" is a farce. Why? Because we still have a "War on Drugs", and its easier than ever for me to get pot.
You cannot wage war against an abstract concept and ever hope to win.
Last edited by chinard on Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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laughing_bear
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I see this different.McHale wrote: We didn't start this.
During the Iran contra crisis, the US could not get enough militant muslim fatalists into their hands to sponsor them with weapons, intelligence and money. The terror groups they fight toaday were breed by themselves in the first hand, financed by the DEA and executed by NSA and CIA!
It is a little more colored than just black and white I am afraid.
The reshaping of the middle east, and other plans that deal with ressources in the first place are on the rumsfeld/ashcroft/cheney agenda since way longer than the word al queda ecxisted or first appeared on any newschannel on this planet.
McHale, your level of misinformation is a good example on how media influence and indoctrination really works. No more french fries ehh? Freedom Burger instead of Hamburgers?If you're from any country besides America, you may have cheered when America was attacked. Many of our "allies" did. France is famous for it.
Yeah right!
I have yet to see any mentally healthy citizen that cheered when the WTC was bombed into the ground. To claim that the french would have cheered is probably more than onlynaiv, for the sake of avoiding a much stronger word.....
I don't know how old you are, but I would guess early twenties, and further, there must be some dark and deep woods in IL.... Not?I stare at every male and female muslim until their out of my site now out of fear
Huhh?!? 
Sorry dude, but you represent a mindset and opinions that I have no time for ....I leave you with a poem too.... by a wellknown american poet....
"What the f*ck Linda!"
(Hank Bukowski)
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delerium
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EJ2
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cnegrad wrote:They should call it Brainwashing. I'm frankly amazed at how strongly those of you in other countires feel about this election.
Hi cne,
I'm sorry but I have to jump in here. It's because people in countries such as Canada fear Bush and the powers and interests he represents more than they fear terrorist attacks from fanatics.
He should have waited and revamped his plan to deal with extremist terror. Hussein was contained and not a threat to America nor the rest of the world for that matter. Bush and Cheney, in their zealous charge have fumbled the ball in the game against terrorism. And as many of us in other countries have feared, we believe we are now in much graver danger than pre or post 9-11 as a consequence of the invasion of Iraq regardless of whether it was for oil, for war machine profiteering, or for freedom and democracy (the latter of which many non-Americans and Americans don't believe for a minute).
People here in Canada are just as mystified with some American's willingness to choose a leader who continues to ask them to follow him over the buffalo jump. We refused to do that because this is the wrong way, the wrong time, the wrong place, and against the wrong people to make a stand defending liberty and justice for all. We have our doubts that this is what the war in Iraq is all about.
Leaders of the other countries that declined to be part of the "coalition of the willing" were part of a coalition of those who said, "Wait a minute, George. Something's not right here."
We don't fear our American brothers and sisters, nor the principles and tenets upon which true democracy and freedom are rooted. We fear what the American system has become. Many of us on the outside do not believe it is a "government by, for and of the people". I for one believe that, just as Islam has been hijacked in firepits around the globe as the fundamental to dispense terror, democracy has been hijacked by right wing oligarchs, bent on the spread of world domination for profit and aggrandizement.
Sorry for the rant.
Cheers,
Eric
Cheers,
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Jim (aka EJ2) Karma-Lab Associate Combi Developer
CATALYST v 2 Blast of Inspiration for KRONOS & OASYS: http://www.karma-lab.com/sounds/catalyst2.html
CATALYST v 1 Combi Explosion for KRONOS, OASYS, M3, & K-M50: http://www.karma-lab.com/sounds/catalyst1.html
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McHale
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McHale
no. what bothers me is your stupid post.londonlad wrote:McHale you are deluded, I'm guessing a few things here:
One you never read the Koran in your life, you can't even spell it.
Two, you have never left the US shores.
Three, you get your news from either ABC, NBC, or CNN. Take it from me, get your news from the worlds press if you want the true, unbiased, filtered angles.
Does it not bother you that Bush is stupid? Is this basic fact not a problem to you?
1 i studied theology for 4 years at a catholic university. i've read every religious book out there by now.
2 i worked in europe for 3 years including london, milan, barcelona, and many more. I was in speaker's corner in hyde park when tiger woods was there. afterwards, i ate at the kfc right around the corner off of old quebec st. proof enough?
3 unless you have some facts to base your theory on, it's as stupid as you claim bush is. he became governor, president, and has a masters and doctorate from two of the top universities in the world. you can't claim it's all nepotism. it doesn't work that easy.
when you finish high school, you're welcome to join this thread again...
-Mc
p.s. cnn, abc, nbc, etc. are as crappy as your news outlets. it's fox newss and reuters for me...
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RiotNrrd
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Fox News isn't news. It's right-wing propaganda masquerading as news. Fox News is to conservatism what Pravda was to the Soviets during the Cold War - ideologically skewed yellow journalism that presents only one side of any story (in this case the conservative agenda) in a favorable light. While the conclusions they come to might be ones you agree with, they are hardly impartial, and impartiality is what news reports are supposed to aim for.
Are ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, and so on completely impartial? Probably not. It's likely impossible to be completely impartial. But they certainly seem able to strike a better balance than Fox, which is fully and unabashedly in the pocket of the American right-wing.
I also question the impartial nature with which Islam was presented to you in a Catholic university. My guess is that there was a pretty strong bias towards Catholicism and away from Islam in such a setting. Christianity - and Catholicism in particular - can be presented as a violent and bloodthirsty religion as easily and fully as Islam. Crusades, anyone? How about the Inquisition? Historically, the Catholics have as much blood on their hands as anyone. As does Christianity in general. Even today there are fanatical and violent groups claiming Christianity as their source of inspiration. Aryan Nations is just one example. The Klu Klux Klan are another. And there are plenty of other wild-eyed neo-nazi groups whose stated intentions are to create a Christian (and typically white) America, cleansed of all non-Christian (and typically non-white) "infidels and heretics". Does this mean that ALL Christians\Catholics are fanatical and violent nutcases? No, of course not. I wouldn't say more than a very tiny percentage are. Which means it is as foolish to paint all Christians\Catholics as violent evil-doers just because a small subset fit that mold as it is to paint all Muslims as violent evil-doers because a small subset of them fit it as well.
But the violent subset is easier to see than the more normal majority. After all, the normal ones just get up and go to work every day and live reasonably quiet lives. They aren't terribly newsworthy, and for the medias purposes that makes them invisible. The wackjobs that blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces are much more visible, and are much more likely to get attention on the evening news (especially Fox News, since showing crazy Muslims fits their agenda to a tee).
Are ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, and so on completely impartial? Probably not. It's likely impossible to be completely impartial. But they certainly seem able to strike a better balance than Fox, which is fully and unabashedly in the pocket of the American right-wing.
I also question the impartial nature with which Islam was presented to you in a Catholic university. My guess is that there was a pretty strong bias towards Catholicism and away from Islam in such a setting. Christianity - and Catholicism in particular - can be presented as a violent and bloodthirsty religion as easily and fully as Islam. Crusades, anyone? How about the Inquisition? Historically, the Catholics have as much blood on their hands as anyone. As does Christianity in general. Even today there are fanatical and violent groups claiming Christianity as their source of inspiration. Aryan Nations is just one example. The Klu Klux Klan are another. And there are plenty of other wild-eyed neo-nazi groups whose stated intentions are to create a Christian (and typically white) America, cleansed of all non-Christian (and typically non-white) "infidels and heretics". Does this mean that ALL Christians\Catholics are fanatical and violent nutcases? No, of course not. I wouldn't say more than a very tiny percentage are. Which means it is as foolish to paint all Christians\Catholics as violent evil-doers just because a small subset fit that mold as it is to paint all Muslims as violent evil-doers because a small subset of them fit it as well.
But the violent subset is easier to see than the more normal majority. After all, the normal ones just get up and go to work every day and live reasonably quiet lives. They aren't terribly newsworthy, and for the medias purposes that makes them invisible. The wackjobs that blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces are much more visible, and are much more likely to get attention on the evening news (especially Fox News, since showing crazy Muslims fits their agenda to a tee).
Last edited by RiotNrrd on Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is a lot of truth in this.US bombs Muslim country - Muslims crash planes into Twin Towers.
US Bombs to a greater degree Muslim country - Muslims go mad left right and centre, Spain, Russia, France. UK will be next I am sure. They'll get back round to the US too, mark my words.
All Bush's War on terror has done is pour petrol onto the flames.
Korg Le He he he......
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McHale
Odinmoon wrote:OK, since I'm pretty sure that in the first couple months of his presidency, Bush did not bomb any muslim nuts. Care to point me in the direction of what you are babbling about? Maybe Clinton started it?US bombs Muslim country - Muslims crash planes into Twin Towers.
There is a lot of truth in this.
I'd *LOVE* to see this factoid.
If Fox News pulled the crap that CBS is trying to pull (fake documents to push an agenda and not retracting the story when every expert says it's fake), we'd never hear the end of it...
As far as the media is concerned, people are so used to seeing the far left agenda desguised as news, that when something shows both sides, it is considered far right wing. Here's proof that the old media is far left:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/poli ... b1004.html
God Bless America and George Bush for in his next 4 years, he's going to need some guidance to overcome the rediculousness of the wackos, liberals, and anti-American half wits out there..."on this day, let us tell you again what we tried to say yesterday.
Like every other institution, the Washington and political press corps operate with a good number of biases and predilections.
They include, but are not limited to, a near-universal shared sense that liberal political positions on social issues like gun control, homosexuality, abortion, and religion are the default, while more conservative positions are "conservative positions."
They include a belief that government is a mechanism to solve the nation's problems; that more taxes on corporations and the wealthy are good ways to cut the deficit and raise money for social spending and don't have a negative affect on economic growth; and that emotional examples of suffering (provided by unions or consumer groups) are good ways to illustrate economic statistic stories.
More systematically, the press believes that fluid narratives in coverage are better than static storylines; that new things are more interesting than old things; that close races are preferable to loose ones; and that incumbents are destined for dethroning, somehow.
The press, by and large, does not accept President Bush's justifications for the Iraq war -- in any of its WMD, imminent threat, or evil-doer formulations. It does not understand how educated, sensible people could possibly be wary of multilateral institutions or friendly, sophisticated European allies.
It does not accept the proposition that the Bush tax cuts helped the economy by stimulating summer spending.
It remains fixated on the unemployment rate.
It believes President Bush is "walking a fine line" with regards to the gay marriage issue, choosing between "tolerance" and his "right-wing base."
It still has a hard time understanding how, despite the drumbeat of conservative grass-top complaints about overspending and deficits, President Bush's base remains extremely and loyally devoted to him -- and it looks for every opportunity to find cracks in that base.
Of course, the swirling Joe Wilson and National Guard stories play right to the press's scandal bias -- not to mention the bias towards process stories (grand juries produce ENDLESS process!).
The worldview of the dominant media can be seen in every frame of video and every print word choice that is currently being produced about the presidential race.
That means the President's communications advisers have a choice:
Try to change the storyline and the press' attitude, or try to win this election without changing them.
So we ask again: What's it going to be, Ken, Karen, Mary, Terry, Nicole, and Dan?
That's quite a headline in the Los Angeles Times: "Bush Supports Shift of Jobs Overseas." LINK
And the Washington Post story filled with quotes from Republican-leaning business people who have politically soured on the President is quite striking. LINK
As is the Wall Street Journal piece despoiling the Medicare reform law before it event takes effect.
On the strength of all the negative coverage of the President and all his own positive coverage, Sen. Kerry heads into today's twin primaries on a roll."
-Mc
p.s. the "koran" is the western spelling of Qur'an you dolt. The (sp?) was because I forgot where (or if) the damn appostrophe went.
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm
http://www.blessedcause.org/Quran.htm
http://www.kjv.com/islam/
http://www.topicsites.com/ebooks/koran.htm
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Wings
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Dear Morb...thanks for the clarification, dude.
See? We only know what we are led to believe, however this goes for both sides.
It appears to me that those pro-Bush's take the stand based on military security issues, at least those issues weighs in for 75% of their opinion.
I have not seen many pro-Bush advocate his office on the basis of his economical or educational politics, nor for elderly care or ridiculous hospital-pricing.
I my brief stay in the US, (4,5 years) I was unfortunate enough to suffer from an appendicitus (in 1989). My insurances was all in order, and I chose to use the local hospital in Daytona Beach.
After signing "umpteen" forms (feverish and in agony), I had my surgery and recoupriated fast.
Excellent service!
However, the bill totaled US$ 2.995,- and my claim was partially rejected by my insurance-company, because of "over-pricing" on hospital-material.
The hospital held me (not my insurance-company) responsible for the bill, because I had signed a form (in the midst of a stack of papers) saying that in the event of a lesser pay-off by my insurance, I would fork the rest. They even sendt a claim-agent to my door!
Now...mr. Clinton may have been an anti-war president, but he managed to get the national deficit to a record-low, same with unemployment, same with hospital-lines.
Even though he practices peculliare habits in utilizing cigars, he was by far the best president in modern times. (in my opinion). As a matter of fact, he was the best president since Lincoln...in my book.
He might not be the best husband, but who cares except ms. Clinton and his kids.
All in all this comes down to a personal preferance, and I for one will not comment on this thread any more, just because it is getting down-right ugly. Some of us would thrive in an election-camp...and that is sad.
Honestly I'm quite dissappointed in some of the comments made here, because I have always believed that musicians and other artists have a much broader view of the world, because they/we are capable of thinking "outside the box". Seeing that this is also a myth, I will not comment any more in this thread.
Thanks to all for "educating" me!
See? We only know what we are led to believe, however this goes for both sides.
It appears to me that those pro-Bush's take the stand based on military security issues, at least those issues weighs in for 75% of their opinion.
I have not seen many pro-Bush advocate his office on the basis of his economical or educational politics, nor for elderly care or ridiculous hospital-pricing.
I my brief stay in the US, (4,5 years) I was unfortunate enough to suffer from an appendicitus (in 1989). My insurances was all in order, and I chose to use the local hospital in Daytona Beach.
After signing "umpteen" forms (feverish and in agony), I had my surgery and recoupriated fast.
Excellent service!
However, the bill totaled US$ 2.995,- and my claim was partially rejected by my insurance-company, because of "over-pricing" on hospital-material.
The hospital held me (not my insurance-company) responsible for the bill, because I had signed a form (in the midst of a stack of papers) saying that in the event of a lesser pay-off by my insurance, I would fork the rest. They even sendt a claim-agent to my door!
Now...mr. Clinton may have been an anti-war president, but he managed to get the national deficit to a record-low, same with unemployment, same with hospital-lines.
Even though he practices peculliare habits in utilizing cigars, he was by far the best president in modern times. (in my opinion). As a matter of fact, he was the best president since Lincoln...in my book.
He might not be the best husband, but who cares except ms. Clinton and his kids.
All in all this comes down to a personal preferance, and I for one will not comment on this thread any more, just because it is getting down-right ugly. Some of us would thrive in an election-camp...and that is sad.
Honestly I'm quite dissappointed in some of the comments made here, because I have always believed that musicians and other artists have a much broader view of the world, because they/we are capable of thinking "outside the box". Seeing that this is also a myth, I will not comment any more in this thread.
Thanks to all for "educating" me!
If you act - create or compose - you live.
My new rock-band
My new duo's homepage - mostly in norwegian, but give it a go
My new rock-band
My new duo's homepage - mostly in norwegian, but give it a go
Did you ever get past the cover? I mean did you even read a page of it?. I doubt it. I have and I'm not a Muslim. And I think that you should get your education from other sources besides Fox News.p.s. the "koran" is the western spelling of Qur'an you dolt. The (sp?) was because I forgot where (or if) the damn appostrophe went.
regards Terry
Korg Le He he he......